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  1. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by lookylou View Post
    I really don't know where to go with all this...nowhere I guess.
    I have to say that this has been one of the most entertaining threads I've read lately.
    I'm new here, I'm a CA follower, but not blind to him being an @ss... He is an @ss. That's why some people like him. I like him b/c I'm not a horse trainer, I've ridden my whole life. I really enjoy the ground work, and there are lots of things I have gotten great results from. That doens't mean that I agree 100% with everything, but 90% of it has been something I could do myself.
    This is just a bad situation all the way around, but how entertaining you've all made it....
    You are the customer that NH was made for. And the bolded part, "90% you can do yourself" is its selling point.

    But, as others have pointed out, the point is to do something with all this ground work to make the buggers rideable and able to do a job. I think the NH crowd offers just about nothing to help their ideal clients get on their horses.

    I help lots of people who have green horses they want to ride... but have only done ground work with. I sit on them for the first 30 days. OMG, these folks would hate the "whacky baby feel" that these horses have. It wouldn't matter how much ground work you did (save some long-lining I do to help me teach some of the relationship to the bit that I want)-- these horses still feel unbalanced in comparison to a horse with a year or more on him.

    Ground work for me has to be short and focused because the people I work for need a horse that is riding-broke, or on his way pretty fast. That means I need to sit on him a lot and teach him to pack me around.

    Sigh. This is why I am so bummed out with the ad nauseum groundwork NH types. They rip off their clients (because they do nothing to teach them to ride). They screw other trainers who *do* let clients know that they'll have to develop the physical ability to sit on the still-green horses they get back at the end of all the ground work.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    3 members found this post helpful.

  2. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plainandtall View Post
    http://www.vetsforequinewelfare.org/...al-schools.php

    I keep refraining from writing what I'm thinking- but this link shows a list of various schools who offer necropsy- and in all cases it's less that $500 to have the necropsy and disposal. It's not "thousands of dollars"... most of them are less than $300. certainly the cost of the training the horse was going to get was going to cost more than that- so that money is in the bank- it's not like they have to come up with extra money- they aren't going to be charged for the training- so you take that money and you find out the cause of death if there is something that seems fishy- you don't just trust that there is a dead friesian in a hole somewhere in Texas...you know- at least SEE THE DEAD HORSE- 200 miles in Texas is next door... it's NOTHING and for a horse who your share telepathic dreams with- you drive 2.5 hours to see for yourself. ..oh and there I went and started typing again.
    I absolutely agree. That's about what I paid for a necropsy, and both times I had to go through a necropsy situation I viewed the body myself and had my microchips scanned off by the attending vet to prove the identity of the body I was viewing. For the horse I had euthanized at the hospital, I had them hold her comfortable on pain meds until I could be there to attend the euthanasia. Me personally, I would have done some heavy calling around and made a way to be enroute to that facility.

    I knew someone who was scammed by a trainer in another state, who told that trainer to keep the body intact until she could arrive, and when she got there a few hours later, no horse, no body, no pool of blood from a horse that supposedly got hung in a fence and bled to death...yeah. She also had a microchip she wanted scanned and she had the horse insured, so she made the hugest of stinks and really ran that training place through the mill. It was big news in the equine set here back then.
    Last edited by RubyTuesday; Apr. 24, 2013 at 02:32 AM.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  3. #383
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    I don't get the attraction of standing on a lying down horse. To me it's pretty disrespectful of the horse's anatomical structure, to have a booted adult walking on him anywhere.

    Just because you *can* does not mean you should.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


    13 members found this post helpful.

  4. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by shycountrymiss View Post
    I checked at Clintons web site as soon as I saw the FB post. At that time there was a post by Clinton himself, and he admitted the horse died, and that he had offered the woman a free horse trained by one of his clinicians, but she refused. He seemed irritated that she didnt take him up on it. I dont know about you, but if a beloved animal of mine dies unexpectedly, the last thing I want is a replacement. I need time to accept & grieve. None of this is what I have a problem with. Clintons post was extremely rude and nasty. Not just to the owner of the Friesian, but to all that were concerned. At some point, someone must have told him that he made a huge mistake in his post, because it is no longer there. I'll never think the same way about him.
    I don't know about anyone else, but being offered a free horse that I have never even met just doesn't cut it. Especially if I have no kind of say-so in selecting it.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  5. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by RubyTuesday View Post
    I absolutely agree. That's about what I paid for a necropsy, and both times I had to go through a necropsy situation I viewed the body myself and had my microchips scanned off by the attending vet to prove the identity of the body I was viewing. For the horse I had euthanized at the hospital, I had them hold her comfortable on pain meds until I could be there to attend the euthanasia. Me personally, I would have done some heavy calling around and made a way to be enroute to that facility.

    I knew someone who was scammed by a trainer in another state, who told that trainer to keep the body intact until she could arrive, and when she got there a few hours later, no horse, no body, no pool of blood from a horse that supposedly got hung in a fence and bled to death...yeah. She also had a microchip she wanted scanned and she had the horse insured, so she made the hugest of stinks and really ran that training place through the mill. It was big news in the equine set here back then.
    Always, always find a way to look at the horse body, in person. I still have my doubts about a Orygun vet who supposedly euth'd a mare for me. The mare had been in a trailer fire and was also in foal. I was so upset because I couldn't handle the thought of the mare suffering, perfectly reasonable in my book. However, in hindsight, I never saw the mare's body. Then I found out the foal was worth quite a bit of money (long story short: she was a mare out of a herd whose foals were selling for big bucks at the time) AND the way she pushed me to euth, telling me how the mare wouldn't survive much longer and would founder and the foal would die anyway. Then, here's the upshot, I read of several horses burned much, much worse than my mare who survived a fire and have thrived.

    I'm still wondering about her. So, yeah, always make sure you're head is clear and check the body then go home and fall apart, but don't fall apart till after you know it's the right horse.
    GR24's Musing #18 - More a reminder than a muse, on the first of the month, do your boob check for any lumps or differences.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by hundredacres View Post
    Exactly - I think CA us using the logic that "all animals die" almost as a defense. Well, of course they do, but how many of us have had training related accidents that have killed a horse? It rarely happens, but would you advertise it on your website as though there's a good chance that it might die, so be prepared? I have watched him work horses way past melt down, and he thinks it's leaned something, but it's simply too exhausted to react the way it wants to.

    I know someone who worships the ground CA walks on and she recently told me she had her horse do a 30 mile trail ride without ANY conditioning. The fact that it didn't die, to her, means it's okay - that reminded me so much of CA. It breaks my heart for her horse.
    Well, I suppose if it did die, she would then have an opening for one of his sooper-speshul, $27,500 "Signature" horses, though if she didn't want a QH, as he advertised on the site that they all are, she'd be SOL...

    Me personally, I don't ever want to own a QH again, so if I were the woman with the Friesian, I too would be pretty dissatisfied with an offer of a "Signature" horse.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  7. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMacallister View Post
    Would I send my horse to a trainer who said I couldn't see it for 6 weeks..Hells no,
    Buuuutttt Magikal fairytale lady KNEW that was his practice, I am sure she read his website, and most likely signed a contract stating all of the stuff on his page. If she didn't like it, she shouldn't have sent him there.
    No way in HELL I would send an animal to ANYONE who said I couldn't see it for six weeks. Especially if those six weeks cost the advertised $3500!!!


    5 members found this post helpful.

  8. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by BansheeBreeze View Post
    interesting except from the CA site about the "Academy" program. The price is $4,714 to have a student work with your horse.

    "While we ask that you don’t work with your horse prior to training, to best ensure he leaves the ranch in good weight, we encourage you to generously feed him before dropping him off at the ranch. Due to the program’s intensity, it is best if the horse is fleshy and a little fat coming into the program.

    Throughout his training, you’ll be kept up to date on your horse’s progress through the Fundamentals every two weeks by the Academy student training your horse. You’ll receive your first phone call two weeks after the horse has been in training, and then four weeks into the horse’s training you’ll receive another phone call. During this call, the Academy student will indicate whether the horse will be ready to complete the course in 6 weeks or whether he may need additional time to get to the desired level of performance. If additional training is required, you won’t be billed for the training, but you will be responsible for the extended board ($17/day).

    Can I visit my horse during the 6-week course?
    No, personal visits to the ranch are not permitted. Academy students are responsible for training several horses each and are committed to training each horse to the best of his ability and are very focused on achieving this goal. Allowing owners to randomly visit their horses would consume large amounts of the Academy students’ valuable time. You will be kept up to date on your horse’s progress through telephone calls scheduled with the student training your horse.


    When colts are started at the ranch, seven out of ten of them on average will develop girth gall."



    I had a friend go through the Academy program. You have to quality for it somehow, but you are literally only there for the duration of the Academy, same as the horse. These aren't people who have been studying under CA for long periods of time, they can be backyard yahoos who somehow get into the program and then you're paying all that money for them to learn how to train horses, under OTHER CA assistants. I don't believe my friend ever even saw CA the whole time she was there. She brought her own horse, a very obese, out of work mare who lost a TON of weight (although she needed it) after the program. I was shocked how much she lost.

    I hated going on trail rides with her because she and her CA devotee friend spent the entire time spinning their horses in circles. We spent most of our time standing around waiting for them. About the only thing her horses were trained to do was stand still while she cracked a bullwhip.
    Seriously? NO visits are permitted? For a price higher than the one I just read on the site? (Oh yeah, the board...how does anyone figure $17 a day? What an odd number...)This conjures an image in my head of a cult compound rather than a training establishment. I am glad I have never given this guy any of my business, because I sure as all hell am a "nosey noodle"...I want to know what my horse is being fed, how it is being trained, where it is being housed, and yeah, I want to look in on MY animal.

    I too found the info about the galls appalling. I have only once ever galled a horse myself. Can't say I've ever seen any trainer do it.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  9. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by skykingismybaby1 View Post
    This is said to be from Clint Anderson


    http://www.downunderhorsemanship.com...-incident.aspx

    First of all, this is nobody's business other than mine and the horse's owner. If people would pay more attention to their own lives, their own horses and their own problems, the world would be a much better place. But there are too many looky-lous and sticky beaks that want to stick their nose in and stir up trouble when there's no trouble to be stirred up.

    #1 People need to get a grip on themselves. Animals die. Humans die. It's called life. In fact, there's this bumper sticker that was invented that says "s*** happens." People put it on the back of their bumpers because that's what happens in life. It's called s*** and it happens. Sometimes it's somebody's fault, but a lot of times it's nobody's fault. Again, it's referred to as s*** happens.

    #2 It's unfortunate that the horse died. Reality is we don't know how he died because the owner didn't want to get an autopsy. Horses die at my ranch. Yes, it's called life. We have 60 horses on the ranch, we have dogs and we even have cats. In fact, we had a cat fight in the barn last week, and one of them died. Shocking, yes. It's called life. Animals die. Yes, even Clinton Anderson's animals die. It's called life. I know this is shocking to know that as good as I am and as popular as I am and as famous as I am, my animals don't live forever either. Holy s*** , I must be human. For any moron that's getting his panties in a wad because a horse died at Clinton Anderson's ranch, get a life.

    #3 It's unfortunate that the owner had to go and start this whole fire because I'm the one that has to go put it out. I've apologized to the owner; it's not my fault the horse died. It's not the owner's fault the horse died either. We don't know how it died. We believe it had something to do with either a brain aneurism or a heart attack because it died extremely quickly and there was no struggling involved. Reality is it was the owner's choice not to get an autopsy - she didn't want to get one.

    I apologized to the owner; in fact, I've spoken with her on three separate occasions about this subject. We sent the owner flowers and we refunded all of the owner's money. I did everything I possibly could. In fact, I even offered the owner a Signature Horse free of charge. I went above and beyond to try to help her through the grieving process. A Signature Horse, with all its training, is worth $25,000. She declined the Signature Horse because she said the horse was too small. I had a horse picked out for her that was 14.1 hands high, and she didn't feel like a horse 14.1 hands high was worth having even though it was free and is worth $25,000. Just for the record, the lady is 5'9" and I'm 5'11", Mindy is 14.1. I rode Mindy in front of millions of people for 15 years and never had one email or comment that said I looked too big on Mindy. Just to set the record straight. But she didn't want the Signature Horse - no problem whatsoever. Since she didn't want the Signature Horse, I offered her the opportunity to send another horse to the ranch for the six-week program and we'd train it free of charge. Again, I went above and beyond to take care of a grieving customer.

    I bent over backwards to take care of her needs, and now I'm having to fix this kind of bulls*** and I'm tired of it. So reality is if you think your horse is going to live forever, you're an idiot. Do we do everything in our power to take care of animals on the ranch? Yes, we do. The reality is every once in a while it keeps coming back to that bumper sticker "s*** happens." So people, get a life, get out of business that doesn't involve you and start focusing on your horsemanship and your own lives. When people start doing that, they'll have a lot more success with their horses, a lot more fun and a lot less drama. If it sounds like I'm irritated and I'm cranky about this, I am. All we've done is taken an unfortunate situation and turned it into circus and absolute mess. It didn't have to go this direction. This is my statement and this whole subject is done after this.



    Just another example of pi$$ poor maketing or public relations. I think they tried to do the right thing and are now just pissed at the owner.
    Maybe I'm having a mental disconnect here, but I think many of us would agree that 14.1HH is pony-sized, and that a 5'11" man on one looks rather silly, regardless of whether or not he got emails to that effect. How then does one call giving a horse of that height AND age "the right thing"? To me, matching her back up with something much more similar to what she had and making that offer would be more of "the right thing". My opinion.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #390
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    That quoted post that is supposed to be from CA demonstrates a disgusting lack of respect or compassion for both the living creatures he works with and the people who own them. A cat fight and one died stated like it's a nothing, every day occurence. I'll bet he doesn't bother to spay or neuter those cats contributing to the stray problem. I don't believe that it is possible for someone with that lack of concern for other living beings to be a great trainer. I've never been a NH kool-aid drinker but CA will never even get my benefit of a doubt.
    "The captive bolt is not a proper tool for slaughter of equids they regain consciousness 30 seconds after being struck fully aware they are being vivisected." Dr Friedlander DVM & frmr Chief USDA Insp


    8 members found this post helpful.

  11. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by RubyTuesday View Post
    Maybe I'm having a mental disconnect here, but I think many of us would agree that 14.1HH is pony-sized, and that a 5'11" man on one looks rather silly, regardless of whether or not he got emails to that effect. How then does one call giving a horse of that height AND age "the right thing"? To me, matching her back up with something much more similar to what she had and making that offer would be more of "the right thing". My opinion.
    an unrideable dangerous critter?
    I am thinking that would have been much more cost efficient to CA.

    BTW, I don't think that Babcock's top producing cutter/reiner sire was much taller than 14 hands.


    So, after this thread has finally died, a new member come by to bump this mess back to the top. With old news, no less.

    I'd say 'Spoon' at best, House Guest at worst.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  12. #392

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    I posted about the Friesian, and Clinton Anderson as a warning. But I also posted because I saw some say the woman was a loon, maybe there was no horse, it was on FB so its probably untrue, etc. Id hate to see someone else in the same situation just because they didnt know the facts. By the way, Im on FB because Ive got a BLM mustang mare, as well as a BLM jenny, and I found several mustang groups there. Ive had horses most of my life, but when I got my mustang, it was a whole new ballgame.



  13. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by shycountrymiss View Post
    I posted about the Friesian, and Clinton Anderson as a warning. But I also posted because I saw some say the woman was a loon, maybe there was no horse, it was on FB so its probably untrue, etc. Id hate to see someone else in the same situation just because they didnt know the facts. By the way, Im on FB because Ive got a BLM mustang mare, as well as a BLM jenny, and I found several mustang groups there. Ive had horses most of my life, but when I got my mustang, it was a whole new ballgame.
    A day late and a dollar short.

    At page 19 or 20, one can rest assure there is no more warning needed.
    and if in doubt, the thread could be read.


    Carry on!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  14. #394
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    I say house guest needed some more sympathy or entertainment. It was already proven that the horse died there, as well as the post that CA wrote about it. Maybe houseguest should have read the whole thread.
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole


    3 members found this post helpful.

  15. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabicon View Post
    I say house guest needed some more sympathy or entertainment. It was already proven that the horse died there, as well as the post that CA wrote about it. Maybe houseguest should have read the whole thread.
    Or drank more....
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  16. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    an unrideable dangerous critter?
    I am thinking that would have been much more cost efficient to CA.

    BTW, I don't think that Babcock's top producing cutter/reiner sire was much taller than 14 hands.


    So, after this thread has finally died, a new member come by to bump this mess back to the top. With old news, no less.

    I'd say 'Spoon' at best, House Guest at worst.....
    Maybe some of us don't give a s*** about cutting or reining sires. Something more along the lines of what the majority of 5'9", I'm guessing English rider since it was a Friesian, would want is what I was aiming at.

    Don't assume that I am a new member, either, or that I haven't read this thread. I know some people think the Facebook poster was a few flakes short of a bale and all the world isn't bringing her horse back. If you have some news that is so fresh and startling, why not start it instead of snarking at people who choose to express their opinion on a post that is, wow, a whole month old? Some of us are out busy working and doing work with our horses and don't have time to monitor the play-by-play here.


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  17. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    You are the customer that NH was made for. And the bolded part, "90% you can do yourself" is its selling point.

    But, as others have pointed out, the point is to do something with all this ground work to make the buggers rideable and able to do a job. I think the NH crowd offers just about nothing to help their ideal clients get on their horses.

    I help lots of people who have green horses they want to ride... but have only done ground work with. I sit on them for the first 30 days. OMG, these folks would hate the "whacky baby feel" that these horses have. It wouldn't matter how much ground work you did (save some long-lining I do to help me teach some of the relationship to the bit that I want)-- these horses still feel unbalanced in comparison to a horse with a year or more on him.

    Ground work for me has to be short and focused because the people I work for need a horse that is riding-broke, or on his way pretty fast. That means I need to sit on him a lot and teach him to pack me around.

    Sigh. This is why I am so bummed out with the ad nauseum groundwork NH types. They rip off their clients (because they do nothing to teach them to ride). They screw other trainers who *do* let clients know that they'll have to develop the physical ability to sit on the still-green horses they get back at the end of all the ground work.
    Well, I'm not really sure how to take all that...

    I used to ride three or four horses a day in my teens to mid 20's. I can ride just fine.

    I just was saying that I happen to enjoy the groundwork, and I like the results I get. And a lot of times I do some short & sweet stuff, and sometimes I just get on and ride... gasp.... a NH'er saying that! The nerve.

    I'm just a regular, every day horse person, who happens to like CA. Do I agree with everything, no.
    Whatever....
    To each their own.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  18. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    But, as others have pointed out, the point is to do something with all this ground work to make the buggers rideable and able to do a job. I think the NH crowd offers just about nothing to help their ideal clients get on their horses.

    I help lots of people who have green horses they want to ride... but have only done ground work with. I sit on them for the first 30 days. OMG, these folks would hate the "whacky baby feel" that these horses have. It wouldn't matter how much ground work you did (save some long-lining I do to help me teach some of the relationship to the bit that I want)-- these horses still feel unbalanced in comparison to a horse with a year or more on him.

    Ground work for me has to be short and focused because the people I work for need a horse that is riding-broke, or on his way pretty fast. That means I need to sit on him a lot and teach him to pack me around.
    Sigh. This is why I am so bummed out with the ad nauseum groundwork NH types. They rip off their clients (because they do nothing to teach them to ride). They screw other trainers who *do* let clients know that they'll have to develop the physical ability to sit on the still-green horses they get back at the end of all the ground work.
    I really think you nailed it right there.

    I feel like NH never gets past 'starting the horse' to actually producing trained riding horses, and riders that can ride well.


    A Signature horse is only worth that kind of money to a CA devotee; he could always have offered her the cash value instead.


    4 members found this post helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RubyTuesday View Post
    Maybe some of us don't give a s*** about cutting or reining sires. Something more along the lines of what the majority of 5'9", I'm guessing English rider since it was a Friesian, would want is what I was aiming at.

    Don't assume that I am a new member, either, or that I haven't read this thread. I know some people think the Facebook poster was a few flakes short of a bale and all the world isn't bringing her horse back. If you have some news that is so fresh and startling, why not start it instead of snarking at people who choose to express their opinion on a post that is, wow, a whole month old? Some of us are out busy working and doing work with our horses and don't have time to monitor the play-by-play here.

    I was responding to the arrogant notion that a 14h horse would always look wrong under a grown man. I understand that you don't give a rip about many things besides your opinion. That is fine by be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


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    Quote Originally Posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
    I really think you nailed it right there.

    I feel like NH never gets past 'starting the horse' to actually producing trained riding horses, and riders that can ride well.


    A Signature horse is only worth that kind of money to a CA devotee; he could always have offered her the cash value instead.
    well, if you send your horse to be trained by him, it stands to reason that you want a horse trained by him and are there fore a devotee.

    I do have the impression though that the horses he does sell are trained under saddle.

    And I am sure the lady in question would have been able to sell said horse to another devotee for a nice lump sum to replace the steed she lost.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


    1 members found this post helpful.

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