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  1. #221
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    7 out of 10? What the heck? There is a reason I think most NH is crap. I see these guys selling their special, magical halters, bridles, carrot sticks, and saddles. You need to buy all that crap for their magical training to work. Really, when you think about it, their main technique is to put on a tight pair of Wranglers and appeal to as many middle aged women as possible. That's it. They are marketing based on the classic 'sex appeal' scheme. Why do you think it's so damn hard for equally talented female horse trainers to make that kind of money? Women naturally use more gentle techniques on horses and have done so for centuries. Men picked up on it, dressed up in the rugged cowboy look and made millions. Any marketing expert will tell you how to sell to a market that is dominated by women.

    The only one I'd pay money to see is Buck Brannaman. I consider it a bonus that I don't give a flying rat's butt what he looks like.


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  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabicon View Post
    I don't think we can say he does one method for all horses. We just don't know, unless someone on here has sent their horse to him that was not a qh or paint. The death of this horse could completely be no ones fault at all. I've known 2 horses in the past few years that were under the age of 8 fall over dead from a "heart attack" standing In the pasture not even been ridden in weeks. It happens and without a necropsy it's all speculation and i don't think it's fair to either party
    to speculate what happen. CA has worked with other breeds, heck he even worked with I believe it was Stephen bradley's event horse before. Does he train his students on different breeds? Idk but it'd be interesting to know facts.
    His whole marketing plan is based on "The Method".

    If you work with enough horses, long enough, (I'm talking decades, not weeks) odds are a couple will die when in your control. I just find the offer to replace the horse right off the bat odd (if true). To me this shows that he's lost a lot of respect and compassion for horses as individuals and is has donned blinkers just like most of the half hour wonders. JMHO
    "I've spent most of my life riding horses. The rest I've just wasted". - Anonymous


    5 members found this post helpful.

  3. #223
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    From the sounds of it, this particular horse had only been there two weeks so probably wasn't being worked THAT hard yet.

    Also, as has been said previously, this horse was not being worked at the time it died. There was no struggle. It basically lied down and died. This is highly indicative of aortic rupture which seems to be a fairly common cause of death in the Friesian breed. Lots of horses of other breeds die this way as well. Hickstead anyone? In any case, the death of this horse is a "no fault" situation. And Clinton Anderson my be a egomaniac, but I highly doubt he's a sadistic horse abuser.
    www.sauconycreeksporthorses.com
    Dedicated to breeding Friesian Sporthorses
    with world class pedigrees and sport suitability


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFFarm View Post
    If you work with enough horses, long enough, (I'm talking decades, not weeks) odds are a couple will die when in your control.
    Yup. But over the decades, less than on one hand, not a blanket statement, 'horses die' and the gall one. IDK, just odd.
    GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!


    2 members found this post helpful.

  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superminion View Post
    I just caught up on this thread. I could care less one way or another about CA or the Fairy Lady.... but if CA was going to A) Run something through the program for free, B) Give her a horse valued at 25K, and/or B) Refund all her money... why couldn't he offer to pay for the autopsy on the horse? It would certainly be cheaper and clear up any questions as to why the horse died while in his care. Or why wouldn't the Fairy Lady ask him to pay for it as compensation since she couldn't afford it and CA was obviously looking for a way to compensate her. The way that I read it was that they didn't have one done because they couldn't afford it.
    I had a horse die in training years ago, and the trainer paid for the autopsy himself--likely to cover his a$$ if not for the kindness of the gesture. Also paid for the burial and refunded my entire fee (even though it was not his fault the horse died). I didn't cause a stink, and we remain friends to this day. Sounds like this situation could have been handled better on all fronts, by all parties involved.


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  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by manyponies View Post
    He has no compassion for animals OR people at all.... can't you tell that from the letter he wrote? Anyone who has the attitude that "Hey, shit happens, horses die, get over it"...shouldn't be able to train horses at all, in my opinion...
    From seeing CA in person many times and listening to him talk about animals, this is my takeaway impression as well. I don't like his horsemanship methods...but I REALLY don't like the way he talks to and about animals when he's working them. He has little respect for them. When he lost Road to the Horse a couple of years ago, he blamed the horse...the horse who worked his heart (and lungs) out for CA for hours so he could have a temper tantrum when he lost. Sorry to digress, but this guy has no business with horses, imo.


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  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by valkyrie36 View Post
    I had a horse die in training years ago, and the trainer paid for the autopsy himself--likely to cover his a$$ if not for the kindness of the gesture. Also paid for the burial and refunded my entire fee (even though it was not his fault the horse died). I didn't cause a stink, and we remain friends to this day. Sounds like this situation could have been handled better on all fronts, by all parties involved.
    This would have been the professional way to handle it.

    Quote Originally Posted by valkyrie36 View Post
    From seeing CA in person many times and listening to him talk about animals, this is my takeaway impression as well. I don't like his horsemanship methods...but I REALLY don't like the way he talks to and about animals when he's working them. He has little respect for them. When he lost Road to the Horse a couple of years ago, he blamed the horse...the horse who worked his heart (and lungs) out for CA for hours so he could have a temper tantrum when he lost. Sorry to digress, but this guy has no business with horses, imo.
    Blaming the horse is poor horsemanship as well as poor sportsmanship. And I agree with your assessment of his lack of empathy or knowing when enough is too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdeboer01 View Post
    From the sounds of it, this particular horse had only been there two weeks so probably wasn't being worked THAT hard yet.

    Also, as has been said previously, this horse was not being worked at the time it died. There was no struggle. It basically lied down and died. This is highly indicative of aortic rupture which seems to be a fairly common cause of death in the Friesian breed. Lots of horses of other breeds die this way as well. Hickstead anyone? In any case, the death of this horse is a "no fault" situation. And Clinton Anderson my be a egomaniac, but I highly doubt he's a sadistic horse abuser.
    He has a foal training program for those who breed: would you feel confident if your buyers used him?


    If a breed is predisposed to any physical weakness shouldn't a horseman be particularly vigilant about monitoring such a horse?

    And I disagree, two weeks is plenty of time to overwork a horse in a program where flooding to learned helplessness and exhaustion, extreme stress, and withholding water are accepted procedures in a 'training' regime; especially a hairy black horse in a hot, sunny climate. Heat exhaustion is real in cattle, let alone horses in hard work who are not monitored.

    Galls are from poor fitting equipment or ill made, uncovered buckles and cinch rings on soft horses, not taking the time to wash salt off of girths or horses between works - they are simply bad horsemanship.

    And 'hours in the saddle' is no excuse. Endurance horses are inpected at rides for galls and back soreness; any horse treated so that 3/4 are sored are being abused.

    Refusing owners observation of training sessions means only that your methods will not stand the scrutiny of other horsemen.
    A trainer ought to pass the 'no blood test' in my opinion.


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  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
    If a breed is predisposed to any physical weakness shouldn't a horseman be particularly vigilant about monitoring such a horse?
    The vast majority of Friesian owners have no idea of any of the breed's weaknesses. The powers that be in the registry want it that way. Besides, the truth is that most Friesian's health is just fine. The breed is susceptible to some genetically inherited problems in the same way some dog breeds are susceptible to some genetic problems.

    Because so many Friesian owners are not highly experienced horse people, MANY are drawn to the NH "gurus". I don't have any evidence, but I'd be willing to bet a decent chunk of change that CA has worked with quite a few Friesians before. Lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
    And I disagree, two weeks is plenty of time to overwork a horse in a program where flooding to learned helplessness and exhaustion, extreme stress, and withholding water are accepted procedures in a 'training' regime; especially a hairy black horse in a hot, sunny climate. Heat exhaustion is real in cattle, let alone horses in hard work who are not monitored.
    Look, I'm not defending CA, but if ^^^this was the norm and was going on all the time, he'd be in jail by now. There's no way someone could treat horses like that regularly for the past 15 years or more (or however long he's been around) and not have had his pants sued off, or have been caught and prosecuted. Especially in this world of cell phone video cameras.
    www.sauconycreeksporthorses.com
    Dedicated to breeding Friesian Sporthorses
    with world class pedigrees and sport suitability


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  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdeboer01 View Post
    Besides, the truth is that most Friesian's health is just fine. The breed is susceptible to some genetically inherited problems in the same way some dog breeds are susceptible to some genetic problems.
    I can't help but think that if they were really such delicate flowers the Charros would be killing them off left and right. They go up and down my street doing stuff like this whether it's 50F or 105F.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bccKkyVwC_Y
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVwcLjqx7wQ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIJ_R903Vf4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D9n3b-oeIQ

    Not saying they handle the heat well - they don't look all that good after they've been made to "dance" 5 min straight in full summer - but they aren't keeling over dead in great numbers either.

    I can't imagine that round-penning one in March weather would be enough to kill the horse without some underlying issues over and above the usual Friesians-are-hothouse-flowers.

    I really wish the horse owner had been willing to do the necropsy so we'd actually know what happened.
    ______________________________________________
    My Blog -horses & photography


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  10. #230
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    Welp, the difference about the weather might be that Stephenville, besides being hotter than blue blazes at times, is in a humid area. My family's ranch isn't too far from there and I can say, at times, you feel like you're inhaling water. If you wash your hair, without a blow dryer, you're hair won't dry and would prolly mold!!

    Yeah, maybe Freisians are a bit on the delicate side, but isn't this the breed who carried knights into battle?? Or is that an old wives tale??
    GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!



  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by goneriding24 View Post
    Welp, the difference about the weather might be that Stephenville, besides being hotter than blue blazes at times, is in a humid area. My family's ranch isn't too far from there and I can say, at times, you feel like you're inhaling water. If you wash your hair, without a blow dryer, you're hair won't dry and would prolly mold!!

    Yeah, maybe Freisians are a bit on the delicate side, but isn't this the breed who carried knights into battle?? Or is that an old wives tale??
    It's an old wives tale.

    They used Brabants, Shires, and such.

    ^_^

    ETA it's more like a New Hollywood Myth, because they just look so pretty, all fluffed up.
    Last edited by Alagirl; Mar. 31, 2013 at 09:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  12. #232
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    If they ever did carry knights into battle, it was long before their gene pool became the size of your Mom's soup tureen.


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  13. #233
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    posted the same time as alagirl. Yeah, what she said.



  14. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdeboer01 View Post
    The vast majority of Friesian owners have no idea of any of the breed's weaknesses. The powers that be in the registry want it that way. Besides, the truth is that most Friesian's health is just fine. The breed is susceptible to some genetically inherited problems in the same way some dog breeds are susceptible to some genetic problems.

    Because so many Friesian owners are not highly experienced horse people, MANY are drawn to the NH "gurus". I don't have any evidence, but I'd be willing to bet a decent chunk of change that CA has worked with quite a few Friesians before. Lol.



    Look, I'm not defending CA, but if ^^^this was the norm and was going on all the time, he'd be in jail by now. There's no way someone could treat horses like that regularly for the past 15 years or more (or however long he's been around) and not have had his pants sued off, or have been caught and prosecuted. Especially in this world of cell phone video cameras.
    There are plenty of horse owners who believe in the hard knock school of horse training. And it is amazing how non-horse people seem to believe whatever they are told by someone they identify as an expert; whether that person is damaging to the horse or at the other end of the spectrum totally spoiling the animal.

    A person putting themselves out as an international expert and trainer of trainers ought to be held to a far higher standard of knowledge about varous breeds; and if the training is rigorous, conditioning should be done using Temp Pulse Respiration monitoring at mniimum, using an original workup as a baseline.
    Human physical trainers of humans suggest pre training physicals and monitor dangerous situations on an individual basis. But they also find out what went wrong when a death or critical result occurs.

    Hiding from the public because they might think your methods are 'too harsh appearing and they won't understand' or you are 'too busy' to be watched - not interrupted, just watched?

    Not a place I would send one of my horses.


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  15. #235
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    Those charro videos made me sick.


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  16. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by hundredacres View Post
    Those charro videos made me sick.
    Yea, that's pretty dang effed up.

    Quote Originally Posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
    A person putting themselves out as an international expert and trainer of trainers ought to be held to a far higher standard of knowledge about varous breeds.
    How do we know he's not? He could be well aware of the exercise intolerance many Friesians have. If anything, they may submit faster than other breeds because they're tired after 2 mins of running around. Which would make them easier to train. Lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
    Hiding from the public because they might think your methods are 'too harsh appearing and they won't understand' or you are 'too busy' to be watched - not interrupted, just watched?

    Not a place I would send one of my horses.
    Me neither, but I kind of see where he's coming from as far as people hovering around and slowing down the process. Don't forget -- the fa$ter his ranch can turn a hor$e around the fa$ter he can get another one in. That being said, IMHO he really should permit owners to observe the training process at least four times during their stay at the ranch. But he doesn't and that's why I would NEVER send a horse to him. I doubt he's any harsher on the horses than any other NH guru out there. I just think he's an ass. Lol.
    www.sauconycreeksporthorses.com
    Dedicated to breeding Friesian Sporthorses
    with world class pedigrees and sport suitability



  17. #237
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    Not to nitpick, but the 2nd quote with my name (above), isn't mine. I agree with it 100%, but I didn't say it .



  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by hundredacres View Post
    Not to nitpick, but the 2nd quote with my name (above), isn't mine. I agree with it 100%, but I didn't say it .
    Fixed! Sorry about that!!
    www.sauconycreeksporthorses.com
    Dedicated to breeding Friesian Sporthorses
    with world class pedigrees and sport suitability



  19. #239
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    Yanno, then again, it could be a perfect storm of everything came together at the right time and Horse just laid down and died. If maybe the intern had taken the horse in one hour earlier, horse wouldn't have died or if it hadn't been so hot that day, or....
    GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!



  20. #240
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    I do distance and my horse was only galled once,when my trainer tightened the girth too tight and didn't stretch his legs out. I ride with a sheepskin cover (which is washed every third ride) and its not an issue. 10 years of riding this horse ,over 100 miles a month during season.


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