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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JumpsJumps View Post

    For example, I'm training a 4 y/o who had surgery shortly after I bought her. As you can imagine, a 4 y/o with restricted turn out and a limited work program (with only 90 days undersaddle and then 90 days off/handwalk) was a bit of a handful. The BO said to me "Who's idea was it to get a young one for you anyway? I always buy horses who are quiet"

    I can't help but take that as a personal attack against me, my riding ability, and my horse, which I find completely unacceptable behavior from a woman I write a check to every month.

    Gossipy stuff I can deal with, insulting me when I'm a client, I can't. It's difficult because the trainer I'm with I really like and the group for the most part is very anti-drama.
    I have a similar situation with a show manager. I think it's real and that if you are writing a check, you are allowed to have an expectation of respect, if they accept it. I also think that insensitivity to and a lack of support for "bringing horses along" is a general cultural issue in this country, and it *is* associated with saying "spend the money and buy a made one, from me". Of course your BO did not encourage you to shop with her...

    I think expressing boundaries is the communication issue, but the cultural environment, and awareness of it, is a critical part too...



  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by justridin' View Post
    I have a similar situation with a show manager. I think it's real and that if you are writing a check, you are allowed to have an expectation of respect, if they accept it.
    Well... isn't this where it just all falls apart?

    Show manager could easily say "as a service provider I have an expectation of respect." Ever -y- body has these expectations of respect. I don't like the word 'respect.' It too easily morphs into Ego. That is where the pain of 'disrespect' is felt.

    I find these expectations are a big part of the issue. When you expect someone to give you something and you don't get it, then it's all about what happens next. And that's were the 'communication' part comes it.

    Do you communicate your pissed-offed-ness or do you communicate your confusion about a response from the other party? Or do you communicate an 'apology' for not making yourself understood clearly?

    It is no different from what do you do when a horse unexpectedly spooks and the two of you go flying across the ring sideways? Do you yank on the bit and call the beast an idiot? Do you shrug and say 'that's horses?' Do you yell at the idiot who came running into the ring yammering on their cell phone without paying any attention to the ring traffic? Do you take responsibility for not having your horse focused on you/desensitized to outside stimuli?

    "I think it's real" is also a part of the issue. Everyone has different ideas of what is 'real' and what is not.


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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    Do you communicate your pissed-offed-ness or do you communicate your confusion about a response from the other party? Or do you communicate an 'apology' for not making yourself understood clearly?
    EXACTLY.
    No one can control what words will come out of someone else's mouth or what tone they will deliver them with, or whether not whoever is yammering is even qualified or in a position to give that opinion.

    The only thing they CAN control is how they respond.

    "Hey, what you said or how you said it bothers me [because]."


    Just harboring silent "expectations" never gets anyone anywhere.
    If you have an expectation or a boundary, TELL people (politely).


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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    Well... isn't this where it just all falls apart?

    Show manager could easily say "as a service provider I have an expectation of respect." Ever -y- body has these expectations of respect. I don't like the word 'respect.' It too easily morphs into Ego. That is where the pain of 'disrespect' is felt.

    I find these expectations are a big part of the issue. When you expect someone to give you something and you don't get it, then it's all about what happens next. And that's were the 'communication' part comes it.

    Do you communicate your pissed-offed-ness or do you communicate your confusion about a response from the other party? Or do you communicate an 'apology' for not making yourself understood clearly?

    It is no different from what do you do when a horse unexpectedly spooks and the two of you go flying across the ring sideways? Do you yank on the bit and call the beast an idiot? Do you shrug and say 'that's horses?' Do you yell at the idiot who came running into the ring yammering on their cell phone without paying any attention to the ring traffic? Do you take responsibility for not having your horse focused on you/desensitized to outside stimuli?

    "I think it's real" is also a part of the issue. Everyone has different ideas of what is 'real' and what is not.
    I like this viewpoint because it makes me think...

    Perhaps expectations have more of an effect over emotions for some, then what has really happened?

    In my own experiences, when the current behaviors of others start to remind me of events that led up to bad experiences that I had in the past, I start to worry that things might happen the same way again.

    But I think that's a normality of the condition/response learning process that most higher animals are wired for.

    But if something hasn't yet happened, and you only have concerns about it happening, are the feelings legitimate?

    I'd say yes, and that we should all follow what our instincts tell us to be concerned about.

    But the question remains... would the feared event truly have occurred, or may there have only been a period of emotional discomfort, and then adjustment among all involved until everyone figured out a way to make it work out?

    However, in order for something to work out, everyone involved has to be willing to communicate, make concessions, and most importantly..... everyone has to want to put in an effort of wanting it to work out.

    But isn't it just so much easier to find people that think the same way you do and not have to go through all of that drama?

    I think so much depends upon what it is you're trying to find.



  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    EXACTLY.
    No one can control what words will come out of someone else's mouth or what tone they will deliver them with, or whether not whoever is yammering is even qualified or in a position to give that opinion.

    The only thing they CAN control is how they respond.

    "Hey, what you said or how you said it bothers me [because]."


    Just harboring silent "expectations" never gets anyone anywhere.
    If you have an expectation or a boundary, TELL people (politely).
    Yes. And, respect isn't automatically given just because you think you deserve it (because you wrote a check?!?), it is earned. And, the way you earn respect in interpersonal communications is by establishing boundaries and communicating them in a calm, assertive and polite manner. Lots of people will snark at you or make offhanded comments...it's not usually actually about you, but about their own insecurities or because they are having a bad day and are looking for a target. The way you react is what will gain you respect and put a stop to it. Call them on it, "What makes you say that?" or "Interesting take, please elaborate!". They won't know what to say because they weren't expecting straight talk or for you to take what they said at face value, they were expecting you to be uncomfortable and silently fume . Then, just let it go and forget about it, not worth getting upset over.

    Stewing about a remark and holding a grudge over it gave the person exactly what they wanted (to feel better about themselves at your expense) and hurts ONLY you. Why get sucked into that? Pointless. If you confidently and politely enforce mature communication, over time, as people learn your boundaries, that's what you'll get. You can only be a victim of snark if you allow it.



  6. #26
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    What in God's name, OP?

    If everyone speaks in the active, as opposed to the passive, voice and for the love of all that is holy eshews extensive musing in the subjunctive mood, then nobody needs to worry what theoretically may have happened or whether what "might" have happened actually did happen or whether what could happen "effects" them more than what actually DID.

    Three step process:
    1.) Assess what happened. (Not "if the feared event occurred", but WHAT HAPPENED.)
    2.) Determine if what happened is accetable to you.
    3.) If do not feel that whatever actually happened is acceptable to you, politely tell people how you feel and how you would like them to behave instead.

    If horseownership causes you so much stress that you suffer from PTSD (otherwise known as reacting to stimuli that could be happening even though you know they aren't actually happening), reconsider the effect that horseownership has on your health. Your potential fellow boarders that you may end up having, from whom you will start expecting behaviors that they have nothign to do with but which other boarders exhibited in your past, thank you in advance.



  7. #27
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    I think the OP has some powerful doobage.



  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    What in God's name, OP?

    If everyone speaks in the active, as opposed to the passive, voice and for the love of all that is holy eshews extensive musing in the subjunctive mood, then nobody needs to worry what theoretically may have happened or whether what "might" have happened actually did happen or whether what could happen "effects" them more than what actually DID.

    Three step process:
    1.) Assess what happened. (Not "if the feared event occurred", but WHAT HAPPENED.)
    2.) Determine if what happened is accetable to you.
    3.) If do not feel that whatever actually happened is acceptable to you, politely tell people how you feel and how you would like them to behave instead.

    If horseownership causes you so much stress that you suffer from PTSD (otherwise known as reacting to stimuli that could be happening even though you know they aren't actually happening), reconsider the effect that horseownership has on your health. Your potential fellow boarders that you may end up having, from whom you will start expecting behaviors that they have nothign to do with but which other boarders exhibited in your past, thank you in advance.
    Quote Originally Posted by katarine View Post
    I think the OP has some powerful doobage.
    Then explain what FDR meant by these famous words:
    "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."

    Explain why countries around the world maintain standing armies.

    Why do nuclear weapons exist.

    It's human nature to fear the potential for adverse events to occur. Those feelings are just as influential over behavior as events that actually do occur.

    As horse trainers. if you're successful at it, you know that instilling a sense of trust in the horse that nothing bad will happen, is a foundation of the training process.

    So how is it that you seem to be saying the same is not true for people?



    ETA: Why is there such a thing as insurance policies?



  9. #29
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    I'm not sure that the potential threat of barn drama is on a par with the potential threats that necessitate standing armies and nuclear weapons. Keeping things in perspective is part of getting along with others .


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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canaqua View Post
    I'm not sure that the potential threat of barn drama is on a par with the potential threats that necessitate standing armies and nuclear weapons. Keeping things in perspective is part of getting along with others .
    I don't think it's on a par.... and I wouldn't go so far to say that the fear of the "barn drama" itself, would often be an originating factor of the emotions.

    What I'm saying is that I think people often react to what they think may happen, similarly as may react to what has happened. But of course we need to include some "causative factor" for the person to think about what may happen, in order for this description of behavior to be accurate.

    Perhaps a diference in how certain individuals react to events in a barn could be based on their own individual past experiences in barns?

    Am I totally wrong?



  11. #31
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    That's what people who are into "Popular Psychology" would call "baggage" and it is not a healthy thing...making assumptions about new people, based on your experiences with other people. Not fair to others and disabling to the person with the "baggage". Plus, a waste of time and energy . Personally, I won't have it, I assume the best of everyone until they prove otherwise. I expect the same in return, I won't be "punished" in advance for the sins of others.

    Plus, life sucks if you go around assuming everyone is going to behave badly. Who needs it?


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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canaqua View Post
    That's what people who are into "Popular Psychology" would call "baggage" and it is not a healthy thing...making assumptions about new people, based on your experiences with other people. Not fair to others and disabling to the person with the "baggage". Plus, a waste of time and energy . Personally, I won't have it, I assume the best of everyone until they prove otherwise. I expect the same in return, I won't be "punished" in advance for the sins of others.

    Plus, life sucks if you go around assuming everyone is going to behave badly. Who needs it?
    But isn't it only "baggage" when it "is" disabling for the person?

    How does assuming the best of everyone until they've proven otherwise... factor into the concept, if some kind of causative event, one of some critical degree for a given individual, has already occurred?

    What i think we need to be clear on, is the difference between "knowledge" and "baggage".

    All of our learnt behaviors are a result of past experiences. Couldn't we think of all of our behaviors as being on some continuum scale of how "positively functionally empowering" they are for the individual?

    But I don't think we should ever venture close to pretending that people can be perfect, and "never" have baggage to any degree whatsoever.

    I think the heart of this mater is about individuals who put their own needs above the needs of others in situation where everyone deserves to be treated equally.



  13. #33
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    Alterhorse, lay off the ganja.

    All of the problems you are waxing on and on about can be addressed with communication. Rather than going around thinking the best of people or the worst of people or carrying around "fears", those who are in full possession of their mental faculties can use COMMUNICATION to address their needs. Even if you think someone is a horrible person you can still use COMMUNICATION to deal with them. You can also arrange your life through MAKING CHOICES to leave toxic relationships. Nobody has to be trapped in some haze of worry over how other people people might behave and what to do, what to dooooooo, if they can communicate their needs and make choices accordingly.

    Non drug-addled communication, that is.



  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    Alterhorse, lay off the ganja.

    All of the problems you are waxing on and on about can be addressed with communication. Rather than going around thinking the best of people or the worst of people or carrying around "fears", those who are in full possession of their mental faculties can use COMMUNICATION to address their needs. Even if you think someone is a horrible person you can still use COMMUNICATION to deal with them. You can also arrange your life through MAKING CHOICES to leave toxic relationships. Nobody has to be trapped in some haze of worry over how other people people might behave and what to do, what to dooooooo, if they can communicate their needs and make choices accordingly.

    Non drug-addled communication, that is.
    And you consider this as a good example of how one should communicate "politely" with others. "Ganja"? "Drug-addled communication"?

    In my experience, when someone feels they need to resort to personal attacks, there's generally something else motivating their conduct other than any desire to discern the other's point of view.

    Is there something I can help you with? You can PM me if you'd like.

    As for how I'm interpreting "the message" of your above post, it's not coming across as a pertinent reply to the ideas that I'm trying to express. If I have not made something clearly understood, then why not tell me what parts you find "confusing", and give me a chance to explain it more accurately?



  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by alterhorse View Post
    And you consider this as a good example of how one should communicate "politely" with others. "Ganja"? "Drug-addled communication"?

    In my experience, when someone feels they need to resort to personal attacks, there's generally something else motivating their conduct other than any desire to discern the other's point of view.

    Is there something I can help you with? You can PM me if you'd like.

    As for how I'm interpreting "the message" of your above post, it's not coming across as a pertinent reply to the ideas that I'm trying to express. If I have not made something clearly understood, then why not tell me what parts you find "confusing", and give me a chance to explain it more accurately?
    Is my post creating a bad memory that will surface as either "baggage" or "knowledge" in the future? When does knowledge of the past become a prediction of the future? How will others relate to you now that you have this baggage? What expectations can they have of your behavior? Can you be blamed for being emo???

    Why does North Korea have nuclear weapons? Is it because they are not insured?

    Does the word "confusing" mean something different if you "put it in quotes"?

    Boarders are like wounded birds, flying broken-winged on the mists of past experiences, tweeting silent tears when someone else at the barn violates the ring rules.


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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    Is my post creating a bad memory that will surface as either "baggage" or "knowledge" in the future?
    When a person adheres to behaviors of resisting learning from experiences that don't support their belief, that can be one type of baggage.

    I think of baggage as stuff that people hold onto because they don't yet know that they will be better off if they can let it go.

    When does knowledge of the past become a prediction of the future?
    That's going to be different for every individual. One might think of superstitious behavior as both a potential form of baggage, and also a form of knowledge for predicting the future. Superstitions exist prevalently throughout different cultures. Using superstitions as an example, we have a factual basis to say that people do use knowledge learnt in the past to predict the future in ways that have no relevance to any real experience that led to an actual related event.

    If superstitions do exist, then there has to be some innate function of the human mind that facilitates those types of beleifs. To then say that people may also have beliefs about future events based on other types of past experiences is only logical.

    How will others relate to you now that you have this baggage?
    Not all baggage results in negative behavior for those who interact with the baggage holder. Take "people pleasers" as an example, a people pleaser may feel they need to give to others in order to be liked. Some people may see the person as being extraordinarily kind and generous, but unfortunately others may see the people pleaser as an opertunity to exploit.

    What expectations can they have of your behavior? Can you be blamed for being emo???
    What people expect of you comes from what they learn about you. How someone processes their thoughts about what they think about another person, is individual, and yes, someone might blame another for being emotional, but that relationship needs to have a context in order to speculate further about it.

    Why does North Korea have nuclear weapons? Is it because they are not insured?
    I would venture to speculate that North Korea has nuclear weapons to maintain it's political existence. I would also venture to speculate that North Korea uses it's nuclear weapons as a form of insurance.

    Does the word "confusing" mean something different if you "put it in quotes"?
    Yes, quotation marks may be used to establish a usage of a word that an author wishes to stand out.

    Boarders are like wounded birds, flying broken-winged on the mists of past experiences, tweeting silent tears when someone else at the barn violates the ring rules.
    I love it.



  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by alterhorse View Post

    To more complex situations where the success of a business endeavor is dependent on many working together to apply their respective talents to achieve something greater than no single one might accomplish on their own.
    Alterhorse, I have to admit I am somewhat lost at this point. So I will refer to the original post for some ideas.

    In the horse business this usually means that the rich get richer/bigger collection of ribbons while the very poorly compensated working stiffs muddle along barely surviving. This is described as 'successful' in most cases.

    You'll have to explain to me what you mean by a 'successful' horse business endeavor.


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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by alterhorse View Post
    I would venture to speculate that North Korea has nuclear weapons to maintain it's political existence. I would also venture to speculate that North Korea uses it's nuclear weapons as a form of insurance.
    North Korea uses its nuclear weapons?
    I must have missed it.
    Too busy having baggage about how ON EARTH to get along at the barn.


    Quote Originally Posted by alterhorse View Post
    Yes, quotation marks may be used to establish a usage of a word that an author wishes to stand out.
    What does the passive voice do for a sentence?
    Lend it a mystical air?



  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    Alterhorse, I have to admit I am somewhat lost at this point. So I will refer to the original post for some ideas.

    In the horse business this usually means that the rich get richer/bigger collection of ribbons while the very poorly compensated working stiffs muddle along barely surviving. This is described as 'successful' in most cases.

    You'll have to explain to me what you mean by a 'successful' horse business endeavor.
    I meant that as a working together as a team analogy.

    For myself, some of the most wonderful experiences I've had in barns, have been when we all enjoy what we do, enjoy working with each other, learn from each other, and are able to achieve our mutual goals because we were able to function together as a cooperative team.

    I focus on my personal goals, and make it a point to also know the personal goals of my teammates. If I can in any way help my teammate come closer to reaching their goal, I try to help. They help me too. The success that I speak of is more about making what you enjoy doing sustainable, then it is about getting rich or famous doing it.

    Hope that makes sense.



  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    North Korea uses its nuclear weapons?
    I must have missed it.
    They do underground nuclear tests, and it seems to upset all of their neighbors.

    Too busy having baggage about how ON EARTH to get along at the barn.
    Sorry to hear that you have things like that going on. Hope you can find a way to feel better about it. If you'd like someone to talk to feel free to PM me, I'm a good listener. Sometimes just talking about something can help you feel better about it.

    What does the passive voice do for a sentence?
    Lend it a mystical air?
    I need an example to understand what you're asking.



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