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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    The problem is there is no protection for whistleblowers. Read the portion of the article I posted. It does seem reasonable until you consider some of the consequences of 24 hour reporting.
    I am calling BS.

    Unless of course the whistleblower is planning on sitting at the beach on some tropical island when the manure hits the fan....

    Nobody likes a snitch, that's what doing the right thing is usually the hard thing to do.

    Uh, like NOT letting abuse continue until it's convenient to report it.


    Like I said: I find it interesting that the AR people are crying foul the loudest...
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    The problem is there is no protection for whistleblowers. Read the portion of the article I posted. It does seem reasonable until you consider some of the consequences of 24 hour reporting.
    In this context what do whisleblowers need protection from?

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão



  3. #63
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    G. Firing for starters. The U.S. even has a whistleblower protection act for government employees...because employers and coworkers retaliate.

    From the United States Dept. of Labor regarding whistleblowers.


    Protection from discrimination means that an employer cannot retaliate by taking "adverse action" against workers, such as:
    Firing or laying off
    Blacklisting
    Demoting
    Denying overtime or promotion
    Disciplining
    Denial of benefits
    Failure to hire or rehire
    Intimidation
    Making threats
    Reassignment affecting prospects for promotion
    Reducing pay or hours
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  4. #64
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    HSUS and other Rara groups encourage their volunteer to apply for work on farms.

    IF there is abuse rather than a trainer who temporarily just lost it..which happens to everyone..then it should be reported. Instead they gather documentation that THEY present..and we know how accurage they have been in the past.



  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    G. Firing for starters. The U.S. even has a whistleblower protection act for government employees...because employers and coworkers retaliate.

    From the United States Dept. of Labor regarding whistleblowers.


    Protection from discrimination means that an employer cannot retaliate by taking "adverse action" against workers, such as:
    Firing or laying off
    Blacklisting
    Demoting
    Denying overtime or promotion
    Disciplining
    Denial of benefits
    Failure to hire or rehire
    Intimidation
    Making threats
    Reassignment affecting prospects for promotion
    Reducing pay or hours
    yes, and we also know how well that type of protection works in the real world.

    and still...the only people who complain about evidence being presented to law enforcement in a timely manner are....

    Animal Rights organizations.

    hmm

    MandyVA had the only plausible reason to have a second look at the law.

    You do not.

    And most states are 'at will' labor states: everybody can be pretty much be fired at any given time for any reason....yes, you are protected under the whistleblower act....but guess what: you will make mistakes and they will cost you dearly....
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  6. #66
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    What some are missing here is that abuse is that, abuse, something that happens when someone is an abuser and that happens in any and all we do in life.

    The trouble here, there is the richest animal rights extremist non-profit in the world going undercover to document abusers to, not bring them to justice, but to make their case that all animal use needs to be stopped, see, there is abuse.
    As they did in the ag vote in California, when they brought out the one abuse of two workers with two dairy cows in a stockyard, or in the Midwest right before the dairy bill they brought out the video of one fellow abusing calves.

    I think that is a reason to tighten abuse reporting laws, so they work as intended, not as a springboard for those with agendas, as those animal rights extremist groups are using them, but that abuse be reported right when it happens, as it should, so it can be checked out and stopped right away.


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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    G. Firing for starters. The U.S. even has a whistleblower protection act for government employees...because employers and coworkers retaliate.

    From the United States Dept. of Labor regarding whistleblowers.


    Protection from discrimination means that an employer cannot retaliate by taking "adverse action" against workers, such as:
    Firing or laying off
    Blacklisting
    Demoting
    Denying overtime or promotion
    Disciplining
    Denial of benefits
    Failure to hire or rehire
    Intimidation
    Making threats
    Reassignment affecting prospects for promotion
    Reducing pay or hours
    Ah, whistle blowers. If you really want to know what happens to whistle blowers you really, really need to Google Roger Boisjoly and Jeffrey Wigand, the space shuttle Challenger whistle blower and the big tobacco whistle blower. Yeah their lives were great after....

    We are so off the mark in this country that the good guys are the bad guys and the bad are the good guys. It's really is fascinating if not so perverse. I swear I'm an alien because it just does not compute.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    Ah, whistle blowers. If you really want to know what happens to whistle blowers you really, really need to Google Roger Boisjoly and Jeffrey Wigand, the space shuttle Challenger whistle blower and the big tobacco whistle blower. Yeah their lives were great after....

    We are so off the mark in this country that the good guys are the bad guys and the bad are the good guys. It's really is fascinating if not so perverse. I swear I'm an alien because it just does not compute.
    Except that here we are talking about animal rights extremists that break laws in their quest, really fanaticism to eliminate all use of animals by humans.
    They are even listed in domestic terrorist lists.

    Not exactly the kind of whistle blower you want us to believe is such a paragon of virtue.


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  9. #69
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    Those in the AG business who are doing it right, certainly shouldn't have to worry about anyone coming along and "going undercover".

    Those that have been exposed in the past, DID have something to hide, otherwise it wouldn't have made the news to start with.

    And not everyone who is monitoring a situation does so for donations or 15 minutes of fame. The majority of those are spending their own time, their own money on documenting a situation that should be addressed.

    Sadly in most cases LE or ACO don't even think of taking pictures as evidence; hardly a way to make a case.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    Those in the AG business who are doing it right, certainly shouldn't have to worry about anyone coming along and "going undercover".

    Those that have been exposed in the past, DID have something to hide, otherwise it wouldn't have made the news to start with.

    And not everyone who is monitoring a situation does so for donations or 15 minutes of fame. The majority of those are spending their own time, their own money on documenting a situation that should be addressed.

    Sadly in most cases LE or ACO don't even think of taking pictures as evidence; hardly a way to make a case.
    yes, of course you would say this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  11. #71
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    With regard to crimes against the state... Boy down the street got his butt whipped by another boy over a girlfriend. Lotza body bruises. Families decide to let bygones be bygones... "no need to give the boys a record." SHould the parents be prosecuted? They witnessed a crime, right?

    I do not buy the crime against the state stuff - again there was ample evidence Mr McConnell was abusing horses with the HPA. Nothing was done till private people with purpose got in there to expose him in such a way no one would look the other way.

    My guess is IF these laws pass, no state is gonna put up the bucks to prosecute and the dates will conveniently be removed from film in Tennessee.

    Other states which make it illegal to film an abuse are also gonna get the same turned head from law enforcement.

    Unless of course the abusers film the undercover agenda folks filming them abusing animals.

    HEY - that would put an end to all the hub-bub over the carriage horses right??? FIlm the raras filming!!! But be sure to turn it in in 48 hours!

    WHat a great law.

    FIlm at eleven!
    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor



  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Except that here we are talking about animal rights extremists that break laws in their quest, really fanaticism to eliminate all use of animals by humans.
    They are even listed in domestic terrorist lists.

    Not exactly the kind of whistle blower you want us to believe is such a paragon of virtue.
    In their quest to rid themselves of nutjobs they rid themselves of watchdogs. How convenient. Reminds me of the slaughter issue. Can't ban anything because of a couple crazies. Do I smell hypocrite?


    3 members found this post helpful.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    yes, of course you would say this.
    That's because I actually care about an animal's welfare.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"


    4 members found this post helpful.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    yes, of course you would say this.
    Of COURSE you would say that!

    Goes both ways chickie poo.
    "My doctrine is this, that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt.”
    ― Anna Sewell



  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    That's because I actually care about an animal's welfare.
    yes, and everybody else kicks puppies....
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    That's because I actually care about an animal's welfare.
    I care about an animal's welfare. I care more about the Constitution.

    You're "whistle blower" analogy is completely wrong. The statute is designed to protect employees who bring waste, fraud, and abuse to the attention of supervisory authority. It has NOTHING to do with surreptitiousness sleuthing.

    Hurleycane, your acceptance or rejection of the basis of criminal law and civil rights is irrelevant. Get a basic book on high school civics and read it. You will be much more effective in lobbying folks to your view.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


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  17. #77
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    No specifics? Just sweeping "my constitution" statements? No need to offer your tutelage to me.

    "Surreptitious sleuthing" of the McConnell's of this world being a crime is not worthy of the space it takes on paper.
    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor


    1 members found this post helpful.

  18. #78
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    I assume times have changed as when I was on the witness stand my photo documentation required date stamps with water marks to insure the evidence had not been altered... there would be few if any cell phone recordings that could stand up to potential question of alteration



    So this is really much to do about nothing except the defendant has a large legal bill defending themselves and tieing up the assets of the court.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  19. #79
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    Yes, most states have made it a felony to submit altered photos in a trial. But that has not stopped the attempts. There was a huge case in Maryland where clearly altered photos were used to apparently raise money? It is disgusting to see the lengths to which some of the AR groups will go to try to convict people. Defhr even trains people to take photos after wetting them down with a hose!
    If an investigation is conducted properly, there is no need to doctor photos.
    The AR folks are just upset because they will now be held to some accountability for their actions/truth.
    Why would it upset the AR crowd to simply have to provide 'true' photos in a prompt manner? Sounds like the easiest thing in the world. Point, shoot, submit! They could even make some t-shirts with the new phrase 'point, shoot, submit'
    Oh wait, truthful, prompt photo submissions would destroy their modus operandi.



  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    yes, and we also know how well that type of protection works in the real world.

    and still...the only people who complain about evidence being presented to law enforcement in a timely manner are....

    Animal Rights organizations.

    hmm

    MandyVA had the only plausible reason to have a second look at the law.

    You do not.

    And most states are 'at will' labor states: everybody can be pretty much be fired at any given time for any reason....yes, you are protected under the whistleblower act....but guess what: you will make mistakes and they will cost you dearly....
    Without realizing it you just proved my point. By requiring reporting within 24 hours it makes it damn difficult to keep it anonymous. Anonymity could prevent retaliation.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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