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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by War Admiral View Post
    No offense, Alagirl, but you're either being incredibly dense or deliberately obtuse in failing to understand what the issue is here. You LIVE in the South for God's sake, how are you not getting it that this is a problem?

    Here's how the scenario is going to play out in Tennessee: Big Lick Trainer "A", who is drankin' buddies with District Attorney "B" and Big Lick Trainer "X" and lives next door to Deputy Sheriff "C", with whom he goes huntin' an' drankin' when he ain't pokin' TWH with electrified cattle prods or beatin' 'em over the haid, is going to get a tipoff from Big Lick Trainer "X's" assistant, via "X", that one of his grooms just... mayyyy... be shootin' a bit of unauthorized vid.

    NOW do you see where we're going with this?? Or are you still missing it?

    Here's what happens: Big Lick Trainer "A" calls his buddy Deputy Sheriff "C" and says "Mercy sakes alive, good buddy, I think I got me a LAHHHHVE one. What say you c'mon over here, son, and arrest this here feller so we can see what's on his phone cam? Well lookee here boys, he's sho' 'nuff got him some video that could get me 'rested 'n' thrown in jail... EXCEPT THAT WE NOW HAVE THIS LAW THAT MAKES THE WHISTLE-BLOWER INTO THE CRIMINAL IF HE IS IN POSSESSION OF SUCH VIDEO FOR LONGER THAN 48 HOURS AND DOESN'T TURN IT OVER."

    Clear enough? Lord have mercy I hope so.
    Not really, what this does is keep animal rights extremists from sitting on a video until it is handy for their propaganda to air it, like they have done with the latest ones in dairies, waiting until some bill was coming to vote, some times for months, sitting on those videos, with who knows, maybe the abuse going on and on, if it truly was abuse not instigated by them to get it on video, just because they wanted it for their agenda's purposes.

    I think to call those "gag bill" is misnamed, should be called something like "Requirement for immediate abuse reporting".

    For what I read, but of course don't really know, what this does is require that, when you see abuse, now you are to contact the authorities immediately, don't wait until it suits your agenda.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    I find it interesting that there are a couple of posters who only come on to COTH to: promote slaughter, criticize HSUS, PETA, DEFHR and Gentle Giants, and complain about any Arabian horse seizure.

    By the way 7arabians, looks like DEFHR has some nice Polish Arabians for adoption...why don't you put in an application?

    Here's an article from the Journal Star. http://journalstar.com/business/agri...fd7d660c8.html

    I care about how my food is processed. I'm not OK with this:

    "In November, the U.S. Humane Society of the United States announced a settlement in its lawsuit against another California processing company, Westland/Hallmark Meat Co. The group filed a federal lawsuit in 2009, after releasing another undercover video that showed "downer cows" — those too weak or sick to walk — being dragged by chains, rammed by forklifts and sprayed with high-pressure water by employees who wanted them to stand and walk to slaughter.
    The video sparked a recall of 143 million pounds of beef, including 37 million pounds that had gone to school lunch programs. The recall cost taxpayers $150 million."
    Really?
    I see some posters that only come here to push animal rights propaganda any chance they get.

    Either way is fine, as long as they abide by the rules of this web site forums.
    This is still a free country, where you are not taken to jail for expressing your opinion, even if it is not what others want to hear.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #23
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    Dec. 29, 2006
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    Mountains of WV
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara in TN View Post
    I support the bill as it stands.
    Abuse strung out (or created for)for the sole opportunity of up loading an incendiary film to you tube is wrong.


    Tamara in TN
    This.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by cholmberg View Post
    This.
    I second that.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #25
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    May. 16, 2007
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    The problem is that you have to turn the evidence over to people who may not care, may be part of a problem due to community relationships and may out you to the perpetrators. True whistleblowing - not propoganda - is only for the bravehearts.
    from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.



  6. #26
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    It seems so odd that so many threads on a horse board are nothing more than the battle cry of the hysterical animal rights wingnuts. Why on earth are the rara's so atwitter over a requirement to turn photo evidence over to professionals within 24 hours.
    Could this upset be caused by the fact that this might not be enough time for them to make t-shirts to sell?
    Or is it because they aren't very efficient with photoshop and it takes them more than 24 hours to stage their photos.
    If any of their hysterics are valid (law enforcement is in bed with abusers who are in bed with the district attorney) then you have bigger problems than animal abuse! Seriously, the rara's need to wake up and increase the dosage on their happy pills!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkInTheWoods View Post
    The problem is that you have to turn the evidence over to people who may not care, may be part of a problem due to community relationships and may out you to the perpetrators. True whistleblowing - not propaganda - is only for the bravehearts.
    nothing keeps any person from reporting any crime to a "higher authority"...perhaps TBI, perhaps a district attorney general in charge of many counties (every county in TN is part of a larger district),so there really is someone to report it to, if it is actual documented abuse and not hyperventilating....

    I stand fully behind the bill as it is written and am saddened that some nameless someone,somewhere tagged it as "ag-gag" to get flames up.... how dishonest a name....

    no farmer wants his stock mistreated anywhere....which is the one reason that the 150 plus horses,sheep and cattle here are touched by no one,but my sister and I.

    no one.

    Tamara
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  8. #28
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    May. 16, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7arabians View Post
    It seems so odd that so many threads on a horse board are nothing more than the battle cry of the hysterical animal rights wingnuts. Why on earth are the rara's so atwitter over a requirement to turn photo evidence over to professionals within 24 hours.
    Could this upset be caused by the fact that this might not be enough time for them to make t-shirts to sell?
    Or is it because they aren't very efficient with photoshop and it takes them more than 24 hours to stage their photos.
    If any of their hysterics are valid (law enforcement is in bed with abusers who are in bed with the district attorney) then you have bigger problems than animal abuse! Seriously, the rara's need to wake up and increase the dosage on their happy pills!
    I bolded the only part of your post that shows you have a grasp of the situation in TN. The rest was just offensive. What is with all the labeling and name calling ?
    from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.



  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkInTheWoods View Post
    I bolded the only part of your post that shows you have a grasp of the situation in TN. The rest was just offensive. What is with all the labeling and name calling ?
    Maybe because NO operation is perfect. None. S*** happens. How would you like having someone at your place under the guise of working for you, and filming another person working for you doing something abusive or bad. . and they don't tell you or the authorities, they keep silent and keep filming. . . then they don't turn that film over to the proper authorities, they give it to someone else to photo shop, splice and paint your operation out to be something very bad. . . .and of course they didn't tell you because they believe you are buddies with local law enforcement. . . .and because they don't like what you do at your operation, and want it shut down. . ..and that is their true agenda, not animal welfare and not a legitimate job.

    If someone truly had animal welfare at heart, they would be happy to contact authorities as soon as they saw something wrong. Even if it wasn't their local authorities, which are you know, the ones sleeping with the ag business owner. . . .


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #30
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    If the film would have been submitted regarding the Big Lick abuse where the horse was punched in the head etc and beat to make him ignore pain..HE would have been saved ONE YEAR OF ABUSE...and think of all of the other TWH's that also would have been saved.

    Instead HSUS shopped it around until Diane Sawyer picked it up ONE YEAR LATER.

    This bill "appears" to stop that activity. IF it is valid abuse it needs to stop NOW..not two months from now. Not Two Years from now


    2 members found this post helpful.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkInTheWoods View Post
    The problem is that you have to turn the evidence over to people who may not care, may be part of a problem due to community relationships and may out you to the perpetrators. True whistleblowing - not propoganda - is only for the bravehearts.
    Yup, that's the way things work. If you have evidence of a crime you have to turn it over to law enforcement. Then you have to let the wheels of justice turn as they will.

    When they don't turn as some interest group thinks they ought then there are other alternatives.

    With law enforcement it's not a question of "caring." It's a question of resources. If the locals have a choice between working a forcible rape or an allegation of "animal cruelty" which are they going to choose? Which should they choose? In EVERY community the number of law enforcement personnel (uniformed, forensic, DAs, etc.) is finite. Which is the higher moral and ethical and legal value: addressing the abuse of horses or abuse of humans?

    I don't condone animal abuse, but I've been around enough to know that "abuse," like "beauty," lies often in the eye of the beholder. And amateur sleuths collecting photos and videos which do not meet the minimum standards for presentation in a criminal court can easily become more of a problem than a solution.

    Being a "braveheart" can be good thing. But, as more than one wise man has observed, passion without discipline is a dangerous thing.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


    2 members found this post helpful.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    If the film would have been submitted regarding the Big Lick abuse where the horse was punched in the head etc and beat to make him ignore pain..HE would have been saved ONE YEAR OF ABUSE...and think of all of the other TWH's that also would have been saved.

    Instead HSUS shopped it around until Diane Sawyer picked it up ONE YEAR LATER.

    This bill "appears" to stop that activity. IF it is valid abuse it needs to stop NOW..not two months from now. Not Two Years from now
    Exactly!

    If you can't get anyone to pay attention to your abuse report, go to the press, stir a stink, but get the abuse stopped as soon as you have proof there is true abuse there.

    I think that would not have to be determined by law, as this one intends, that should be COMMON SENSE!

    If this is what these laws are all about, the "gag laws" nickname is indeed not correct and that should be questioned every time someone uses that.

    I think we already have such laws about child abuse and others, that you are breaking the law if you know abuse is happening and are not trying to do something, see the Paterno case just now in the news.



  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Exactly!

    If you can't get anyone to pay attention to your abuse report, go to the press, stir a stink, but get the abuse stopped as soon as you have proof there is true abuse there.

    I think that would not have to be determined by law, as this one intends, that should be COMMON SENSE!

    If this is what these laws are all about, the "gag laws" nickname is indeed not correct and that should be questioned every time someone uses that.

    I think we already have such laws about child abuse and others, that you are breaking the law if you know abuse is happening and are not trying to do something, see the Paterno case just now in the news.

    THAT is the motive of the private sector going undercover.
    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor



  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurleycane View Post
    THAT is the motive of the private sector going undercover.
    I beg to disagree.
    Animal rights extremists have made videos for agendas and used them as such.
    What you call the "private sector" is defending themselves against that kind of manipulation.
    Seems that these bills are demanding that animal rights extremist groups also follow the laws and common sense of reporting abuse when you see it, not only when it is convenient for your propaganda.

    Why did they get by with that for so long?



  15. #35
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    No Bluey - They are doing exactly what you suggested be done when no one pays attention.

    Your logic really does tread a thin line of accusing the witness. Your logic is why people look the other way - easier to not get involved. Ever contact the local police on such matters? Notice how they push back on you the caller? Well, it is because they have bigger fish to fry.

    One way or another - these "agenda" folks wanted something done. And in McConnell's case they sure got it done while others looked the other way and fried bigger fish.

    Shame on any who accuse them of having abused the horse.
    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor


    1 members found this post helpful.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurleycane View Post
    THAT is the motive of the private sector going undercover.
    No, the motivation for "going undercover" is to gather evidence to prove a theory. Or, if you prefer, "dig up dirt."

    Oft times the reason "no one listens" is that the speaker has nothing to say. Or what they are saying is factually in error. Or is made up. It should be noted that making a false police report in TN is a felony.

    I'm not naive about the way some folks treat their livestock. I wouldn't necessarily follow their way. But neither am I so arrogant as to believe that my way is not only the correct way, it's the ONLY POSSIBLE way. I see a great deal of that from some of the "undercover expose's" that are circulated on utube.

    Note, too, that the requirement is to submit raw and unedited footage and photos. A lot can be done with Photoshop and special effects software.

    I'm not willing to see an "informal Stazi" take root in TN (or anywhere else). Let the Cubans and North Koreans have that as their little corner of the world.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


    1 members found this post helpful.

  17. #37
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    The AR extremists benefited from the natural response we all have when we see the photos, videos, etc. They set the scene, provide the narrative and in some cases, provide the music. Fortunately, the internet has allowed these charlatans to be outed for what they really are.
    The sad part is that due to their abuse of our emotions, many are now so jaded that nobody wants to hear about 'another' abuse case. Time after time, it turns out that there was very little truth in their case.
    Also, in too many jurisdictions, complaints are made/handled by the various rescue agencies themselves. Then, they run up the costs on paper and demand the owner pay outrageous fees for the return of their animals.
    Fortunately, a brave horse owner has turned the table on this 'rescue industry' and will soon send a message that will have repercussions world-wide.
    If this Tennessee bill existed in all states, any of the few actual abuse cases would be handled immediately. All the squawking seems to be proof that those AR zealots who pay their bills based on how many complaints/seizures they make, will not be able to able to roll a snowball into an avalanche any more! Hooray for Tennessee. We need to spread this legislation throughout the land!


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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurleycane View Post
    THAT is the motive of the private sector going undercover.
    There is no private sector in law enforcement!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.



  19. #39
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    Ah, the troika has arrived...but it looks like you've acquired a 4th. Maybe the horsemen of the apocalypse (but someone's going to have to loan Alagirl a horse.)
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    1 members found this post helpful.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurleycane View Post
    No Bluey - They are doing exactly what you suggested be done when no one pays attention.

    Your logic really does tread a thin line of accusing the witness. Your logic is why people look the other way - easier to not get involved. Ever contact the local police on such matters? Notice how they push back on you the caller? Well, it is because they have bigger fish to fry.

    One way or another - these "agenda" folks wanted something done. And in McConnell's case they sure got it done while others looked the other way and fried bigger fish.

    Shame on any who accuse them of having abused the horse.
    No, if the laws are not followed, either way, when abuse happens and the ones that know are sitting on that knowledge, that is criminal.
    Just as it is when the abuse is reported and, as you say, "no one listens".

    Maybe this law will make all stand up and take notice and be proactive.

    That is considering that there is true abuse, not someone calling in the law because a horse is "dead" in a field with a "blind" horse standing over it, meaning a horse is napping with a friend with a face mask watching.
    When that happens, as it regularly does, we can see where the law may decide a cursory check and dismissal is in order.

    If all that these laws do is define how to go about recording and reporting abuse cases, I don't see that such hurt anyone other than those that like to play loose with just that, as animal rights extremists modus operandi has been for decades now.

    The HSUS has given notice that, in their next phase, they are going to concentrate on lobbying and trying to pass laws that further their agenda of eventually eliminating all uses of animals and that they will now be releasing an abuse video a month.

    Oh, they still have some stashed away they have not presented to the police?
    Maybe that is why we need these laws, to make clear that is not only terrible for those that may all along be abused, but it is against the law and now it is made clear it is.


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