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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by SEPowell View Post
    If he's had two years off and this is what you have I doubt if it's going to improve.
    He hasn't had two years off though. They've been jogging him on an Equizer for 2.5 miles a day and not any turn out. I bet he has a strained SI or something else.


    Honestly...I might really go get the mare (but I prefer mares)! But I would take the gamble that with some time, this horse (the gelding) may get better.
    Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Mar. 26, 2013 at 03:13 PM.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **


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  2. #22
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    Have no advice to offer except to say that a 3/5 lameness should be pretty damn obvious.

    ETA: Just read what BFNE wrote and I think it's good advice.



  3. #23
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    At least with the mare 1) you loved the ride, remember what you said? 2) if she eventually becomes lame, you can at least breed her or sell or place her as a broodmare. A lame gelding...and you've got a real problem..a lawn ornament.

    All horses have something if you look hard enough.



  4. #24
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    Sorry to hear about your frustrations! As much of a gamble as it may be I have learned that doing PPE's on horses when the purchase price is low is just not worth the effort. Especially, if you are given a chance to try the horse more then once and away from it's home turf. All I did was successfully give myself a complex where I look at an otherwise sound horse and pick out something wrong with it I have made myself miserable doing this! Not to mention now I can't even find a horse that has satisfactory movement (to me.)

    I would say for a $1 you should go for it. The other professionals around you did not see any glaring problems and as others have said, barefoot, thrush, out of a regular program, and other factors could have contributed to this. I am astounded at $800 for a PPE with absolutely no diagnostic resolution however! It shocks me that your vet hasn't even been able to point to a specific area that could be the cause after this amount of money. But then again, I am old school and my guardian was a cow vet....


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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SEPowell View Post
    Maybe before making any decision you could ask your vet to tell you the various treatments and costs for injured stifles. Hopefully that information would be free and could help you determine what to do.

    Also, would keeping him 6 weeks (your farrier's suggestion) eat into your horse purchase fund?
    I tried to ask my vet about stifle injuries, but he was pretty hesitant to discuss it "off record" because it was mostly subjective guess work. He basically told me that his gut said it was a stifle issue, but that it could also he hock, suspensory, or pelvis (least likely). He said that a stifle issue could range from minor soft tissue injury to a debilitating, career-killing condition. No way to tell with rads, ultrasound, etc. No way to know without spending $$$



  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by GAGirl View Post
    I am astounded at $800 for a PPE with absolutely no diagnostic resolution however! It shocks me that your vet hasn't even been able to point to a specific area that could be the cause after this amount of money. But then again, I am old school and my guardian was a cow vet....
    The $800 PPE was for the first horse I vetted and we definitely got diagnostic resolution in that case. Luckily, my vet only charged me $87 for yesterday's PPE (included foot block, flexions, and basic exam) because I think he feels sorry for me and because I'm clearly buying in bulk, LOL.


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  7. #27
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    I'm with BFNE on this one too.

    I've picked up several horses who were lame behind. My OTTB came off of the track lame on his LH....he didn't drag the toe, but he did take an oddly "stabby" step with that leg. The answer for him was bodywork. His pelvis was sheared to one side and tilted forward. He literally could not use one hind leg the same way as the other. I didn't bother with a lameness exam...we went straight to the bodywork side of things.

    He's now my GP horse.

    In regards to the thrush, I've just been through that with my TB too and it made a HUGE difference in his way of going. There's a long backstory that I won't go into, but thanks in part to crappy shoeing as I struggled to find a new farrier (my old one moved), my guy got a bad sulcus infection in his RF and RH. It made him lame in his RH to the point that I was sure it was more than just the thrush. But after a week and a half of Tomorrow and a thrush powder, I have my sound horse back. Boy did it wreak havoc on his body to be compensating for the soreness, though. My point being that thrush can absolutely exascerbate any other body issues going on with the horse.....tweaked SI, etc.
    __________________________________
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  8. #28
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    FYI the lameness scale

    http://www.aaep.org/health_articles_view.php?id=280

    0: Lameness not perceptible under any circumstances.
    1: Lameness is difficult to observe and is not consistently apparent, regardless of circumstances (e.g. under saddle, circling, inclines, hard surface, etc.).
    2: Lameness is difficult to observe at a walk or when trotting in a straight line but consistently apparent under certain circumstances (e.g. weight-carrying, circling, inclines, hard surface, etc.).
    3: Lameness is consistently observable at a trot under all circumstances.
    4: Lameness is obvious at a walk.
    5: Lameness produces minimal weight bearing in motion and/or at rest or a complete inability to move.


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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    He hasn't had two years off though. They've been jogging him on an Equizer for 2.5 miles a day and not any turn out. I bet he has a strained SI or something else.


    Honestly...I might really go get the mare! But I would take the gamble that with some time, this horse may get better.
    I never vet any of the horses I buy and often end up with them because they're injured and have no place else to go. I've rehabbed many injuries, including an SI with torn ligaments... But this isn't presenting like a strained SI. It really sounds like a stifle.

    However, I'm with you, I'd buy him for a dollar and work with him. But I can afford the risk of not getting a horse for my sport. Also, I'm more wed to helping tbs than to having a horse to event. Blame the Ch said her funds are limited and so that's my reason for advising her so conservatively. If it were me, I'd have all three horses in my barn by now.

    Thinking about the mare: I wonder if her feet were so short because of her weaving. Wasn't she standing on concrete and weaving before she was rescued? It seems that a more likely story than having had a farrier who trimmed her too short would be that she wore her feet down weaving on concrete. That could have also irritated her coffin bones, couldn't it? Was there actual rotation? or just irritation? If it's irritation she may just need time to heal.



  10. #30
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    My biggest hesitation when I get a horse is what is my outlet if this horse doesn't work out? If we just don't get along? In the scenario you are in where I could send that horse back at any time I would take the gamble. If I couldn't give him back I don't think I would because I don't want to start with a problem.

    Just complicated... I said before I have never vetted. But I had a gelding come back from a lease extremely back sore, underweight, feet a mess... Well... He never came totally sound again and I spent thousands.

    However that horse was sound for me for four years prior to that. So who knows really. Maybe just free lease the horse for something like three months to see if he pans out?



  11. #31
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    I agree too -- could be worth the risk for $1. Can you post a video of him moving? I am curious to see him anyway as he looks gorgeous from his CANTER photo. I probably would have kept the mare too, though -- I'm pretty willing to overlook bad X rays because I've had several horses that film horribly and were sound as can be, and several that seem to ALWAYS have issues but have beautiful films.


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  12. #32
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    If you decide to pass, I'd happily take that horse for $1 in a New York minute. Just had to say that first, now off to go read everyone's replies.
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what
    lies with in us. - Emerson


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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by SEPowell View Post
    I never vet any of the horses I buy and often end up with them because they're injured and have no place else to go. I've rehabbed many injuries, including an SI with torn ligaments... But this isn't presenting like a strained SI. It really sounds like a stifle.
    could be stifle....my point was really more no turn out and just an exerciser really isn't rested for 2 years. If he was out in a field and not doing anything, I might be more conservative.

    I think I'm being more agressive almost because of the limited purchasing power of the OP. I don't think I've EVER bought a horse off the track that didn't have something wrong with them that needed a bit of time. That is why many of them were under 5K. If they were completely sound, good moving and big....well, often you pay more than 5K for that even in OTTBs...the re-sellers snatch those types up before they even hit the market. So if I'm buying an OTTB, I expect to have to give them some time AND put some money into them to get them 100%....even ones that have been let down. I do typically do an extensive PPE on the cheap ones...and no, they do not pass like a sport horse in training. But my vet lets me know what risks we are taking and we come up with a plan to get them 100%. It is always a gamble.

    If the OP doesn't want a gamble....don't buy a horse. They ALL will have an element of a gamble....and at least IME, something tends to go wrong with them and it usually isn't what you expected from the PPE! Hell, the nicer they are....I think it increases exponentially the probability that something will go wrong with them. It's why we all think that my yearling who has now been in New Bolton (vet hospital) twice this month (and they still don't know what is wrong with him) will be an Olympic super star.
    Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Mar. 26, 2013 at 03:42 PM. Reason: typo
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **


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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by fairtheewell View Post
    All horses have something if you look hard enough.
    I actually like the gleding's ride even more than the mare. Both were very nice horses with issues He is easier to work with than her, more levelheaded and quiet. You're right, though, the re-homing on a lame gelding is tough. The seller said she would take him back for life, but in her words, he is going to "rot" at her place since she only does breeding and has no use for a riding horse. It also sounds like she will not pay to investigate his soundness issue, since it not presenting as a "major" issue right now. I doubt he will sell readily, though, as he won't vet clean and there is no place to test ride him at her facility. I know I can't keep a horse out of guilt, but he I fear for his future and he really is the nicest horse I've seen in my price range. How nice he is won't matter, though, if won't be sound.


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  15. #35
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    FWIW...a horse can show "lameness" long after an injury has healed, because the proprioceptors (sp) in the feet have to be reset sometimes, i.e., by re-educating the nerves that tell the brain there is a soreness. Re-hab consists of walking and working on uneven ground amongst other things.


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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by blame_the_champagne View Post
    I tried to ask my vet about stifle injuries, but he was pretty hesitant to discuss it "off record" because it was mostly subjective guess work. He basically told me that his gut said it was a stifle issue, but that it could also he hock, suspensory, or pelvis (least likely). He said that a stifle issue could range from minor soft tissue injury to a debilitating, career-killing condition. No way to tell with rads, ultrasound, etc. No way to know without spending $$$
    I think he's probably being careful not to say too much definite without rads to back him up in case the owner disagrees with him. I think his "off the record" comment was his way of saying you're dealing with a stifle.

    Now, speaking from my heart and not as a financially responsible adult I think you should buy him for a dollar with a contract saying you can return him if he does not come sound AND take the mare on trail.


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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    could be stifle....my point was really more no turn out and just an exerciser really isn't rested for 2 years. If he was out in a field and not doing anything, I might be more conservative.

    I think I'm being more agressive almost because of the limited purchasing power of the OP. I don't think I've EVER bought a horse off the track that didn't have something wrong with them that needed a bit of time. That is why many of them were under 5K. If they were completely sound, good moving and big....well, often you pay more than 5K for that even in OTTBs...the re-sellers snatch those types up before they even hit the market. So if I'm buying an OTTB, I expect to have to give them some time AND put some money into them to get them 100%....even ones that have been let down. I do typically do an extensive PPE on the cheap ones...and no, they do not pass like a sport horse in training. But my vet lets me know what risks we are taking and we come up with a plan to get them 100%. It is always a gamble.

    If the OP doesn't want a gamble....don't buy a horse. They ALL will have an element of a gamble....and at least IME, something tends to go wrong with them and it usually isn't what you expected from the PPE! Hell, the nicer they are....I think it increases exponetinally the probability that something will go wrong with them. It's why we all think that my yearling who has now been in New Bolton (vet hospital) twice this month (and they still don't know what is wrong with him) will be an Olympic super star.
    Absolutely!


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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    could be stifle....my point was really more no turn out and just an exerciser really isn't rested for 2 years. If he was out in a field and not doing anything, I might be more conservative.

    I think I'm being more agressive almost because of the limited purchasing power of the OP. I don't think I've EVER bought a horse off the track that didn't have something wrong with them that needed a bit of time.
    I agree...I expect issues with ANY horse, and I especially expect it with an OTTB. However, do you think it's wise to start with a mystery lameness and go exploring? I'm not opposed to it, hence this thread and the big dilemma I'm going through. I can take what I would have spent on his purchase price and apply it to diagnosis and treatment. However, if I get to the of the that road and find that it is an incurable issue that will prevent a sporthorse career, then I have no money left and a lame horse on my hands. Regarding stifle issues, what are the things in there that it could potentially be? How risky are stifle issues? In your OTTB rehabing experience, do they mostly resolve with treatment or are a good portion of them career ending?



  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWjumper View Post
    I'm with BFNE on this one too.

    I've picked up several horses who were lame behind. My OTTB came off of the track lame on his LH....he didn't drag the toe, but he did take an oddly "stabby" step with that leg. The answer for him was bodywork. His pelvis was sheared to one side and tilted forward. He literally could not use one hind leg the same way as the other. I didn't bother with a lameness exam...we went straight to the bodywork side of things.

    He's now my GP horse.

    In regards to the thrush, I've just been through that with my TB too and it made a HUGE difference in his way of going. There's a long backstory that I won't go into, but thanks in part to crappy shoeing as I struggled to find a new farrier (my old one moved), my guy got a bad sulcus infection in his RF and RH. It made him lame in his RH to the point that I was sure it was more than just the thrush. But after a week and a half of Tomorrow and a thrush powder, I have my sound horse back. Boy did it wreak havoc on his body to be compensating for the soreness, though. My point being that thrush can absolutely exascerbate any other body issues going on with the horse.....tweaked SI, etc.
    Yes, he has deep sulcus infection in three of his feet, the worst of which is in the right hind (the one that is presenting lameness). Unfortunately, though, he was still lame when we blocked that hoof and lamer when we flexed hock and stifle. I am wondering if body work will help too. We have a body worker that we love who comes to the barn once a month or so and he does wonders on some of the horses. My farrier said it could possibly be a pinched nerve, which could potentially be resolved through adjustment/body work. Wouldn't that be nice? No way to know, though, without rads. Hard to know where I should start if I do move forward, but at the very least I will keep him for six weeks to treat his thrush before investing in more diagnostic work. Does that sound reasonable?



  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by blame_the_champagne View Post
    I actually like the gleding's ride even more than the mare. Both were very nice horses with issues He is easier to work with than her, more levelheaded and quiet. You're right, though, the re-homing on a lame gelding is tough. The seller said she would take him back for life, but in her words, he is going to "rot" at her place since she only does breeding and has no use for a riding horse. It also sounds like she will not pay to investigate his soundness issue, since it not presenting as a "major" issue right now. I doubt he will sell readily, though, as he won't vet clean and there is no place to test ride him at her facility. I know I can't keep a horse out of guilt, but he I fear for his future and he really is the nicest horse I've seen in my price range. How nice he is won't matter, though, if won't be sound.
    So keep him for a few months. Seriously.

    He's a good egg, temperment-wise, and you like him. And you're running out of money. Those are reasons enough to hang onto him for a month or two, get his thrush worked out, and get the chiro out.

    Knowing, the whole time, that you can get out scot-free...priceless.


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