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  1. #1
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    Default Breeders of Jumpers & Eventers...Please look at this pedigree.

    I have someone interested in one of my fillies...they want to do upper level dressage to begin w/ (the goal being PSG or higher), and also eventually eventing up to the Pre-Lim level.

    The person asked if I thought Shah would be suitable for both. Well, I know she will have no issues w/the dressage part, but I really don't know about jumping. I've never free-jumped her, but she willingly hops over obstacles in the pasture and cross-rails in an arena.

    Simply looking at her pedigree, what would you guess? I know Sandro Hit came from jumping lines and her sire has Escudo as a damsire. Plus on the tail female line is more "E" line, so more jumper blood.

    Here is a link to that tail female line:
    http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10894320

    I'd love to hear your thoughts on this...

    Here is a link to her pedigree:
    http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=Shaharazad+RHR&sex=f&color=&dog_breed=any&birt hyear=&birthland=




    Last edited by Kyzteke; Nov. 23, 2013 at 02:39 PM.



  2. #2
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    I had a mare with mostly dressage breeding that I put in training with an event rider, who was very good at dressage. I very much like event riders for young horses. This mare showed a talent for jumping and sold to a rider looking for what your person wants. I never would have known she had jumping talent without having someone give her a bit of training in that direction. I don't really think you can make any kind of educated guess without doing that.
    Mystic Owl Sporthorses
    www.mysticowlsporthorses.com


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  3. #3
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    I would not be looking at a pedigree like that for a real upper level eventer because there's not much TB blood, but if her goal is only to get to Prelim there's no reason this filly can't do that. It depends a bit on her phenotype, but most reasonably athletic horses, if ridden well, can make the time and be successful at Prelim. The jumps are not *that* big (3'7 cross country, 3'9 stadium), so if she's the least bit scopey it should be very doable. She doesn't have a lot of jumping blood, but she does have the Escudo/G-line through Schroeder. I remember seeing a video of Schroeder doing the cross country at his stallion testing and I was impressed by his athleticism and keen attitude.

    The key element is whether she has the forward-thinking, bold attitude for the cross country, which is something that is hard to predict in a 2 year old. Pretty much any horse should be able to get to Training level; IME, though, you quickly find out at Training whether they have the ability to go any higher, as this is the point at which more challenging questions start to be introduced (drops into water, coffins etc.) and then there is a big leap from Training to Prelim, both in height and difficulty of the fences. Provided she has the brain, sufficient jumping ability for these somewhat limited jumping requirements and also has enough athleticism to open up and have a bit of a gallop cross country, I find that low level eventing even up to Prelim ultimately turns out to be mostly a dressage competition (which presumably your filly will excel in!).


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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by *Tradewind* View Post
    I would not be looking at a pedigree like that for a real upper level eventer because there's not much TB blood, but if her goal is only to get to Prelim there's no reason this filly can't do that. It depends a bit on her phenotype, but most reasonably athletic horses, if ridden well, can make the time and be successful at Prelim.
    No, the buyer is first and foremost looking for an upper level dressage horse. But she mentioned she would also like that horse to be capable of doing "up to Prelim level eventing somewhere down the road..."

    The gal is looking for a life-time horse to do both, so I don't want to mislead her.

    Glad you liked Schroeder in the XC test. I've been meaning to ask Kathy how his jump is.

    This cross definitely turned out great and I plan to repeat it!



  5. #5
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    Here is the video link, it's actually on Kathy Hickerson's site:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n4FtFpYG-U

    He actually has quite a nice gallop too, as per this video. I was really keen on this footage as I have a 2 year old Schroeder baby as well. For this reason, I have been following Schroeder's progress and it is nice to see his versatility.



  6. #6
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    This potential buyer doesn't ask for much, does she? Just tell her what you told us and explain that is all you can do at this time.
    "I used to have money, now I have horses."


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  7. #7
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    Realistically, if the rider has never gone Prelim before, it's unlikely that she is going to do it her first time on whichever horse she buys. Ask her about her riding experience & coaching and go from there. (It's not a crime to enjoy the lower levels of any discipline on a horse you enjoy... but a lot of people like to feel important when they are horse shopping.)

    - buyers generally don't have both a trainer who can coach to PSG and one who can coach to Prelim (or a trainer who does both)

    - people who ride at those levels usually have contacts/regular lessons with someone whose opinion they can canvass (they aren't asking you, the seller)
    Blugal

    You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng


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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by *Tradewind* View Post
    I would not be looking at a pedigree like that for a real upper level eventer because there's not much TB blood, but if her goal is only to get to Prelim there's no reason this filly can't do that. It depends a bit on her phenotype, but most reasonably athletic horses, if ridden well, can make the time and be successful at Prelim. The jumps are not *that* big (3'7 cross country, 3'9 stadium), so if she's the least bit scopey it should be very doable. She doesn't have a lot of jumping blood, but she does have the Escudo/G-line through Schroeder. I remember seeing a video of Schroeder doing the cross country at his stallion testing and I was impressed by his athleticism and keen attitude.

    The key element is whether she has the forward-thinking, bold attitude for the cross country, which is something that is hard to predict in a 2 year old. Pretty much any horse should be able to get to Training level; IME, though, you quickly find out at Training whether they have the ability to go any higher, as this is the point at which more challenging questions start to be introduced (drops into water, coffins etc.) and then there is a big leap from Training to Prelim, both in height and difficulty of the fences. Provided she has the brain, sufficient jumping ability for these somewhat limited jumping requirements and also has enough athleticism to open up and have a bit of a gallop cross country, I find that low level eventing even up to Prelim ultimately turns out to be mostly a dressage competition (which presumably your filly will excel in!).
    This is a good answer.



  9. #9
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    Default Re

    Can you put her into an arena for some loose jumping as that will give you a fair idea of wether she has the mind character and temperament for eventing..

    - does she boldly go from one end of the school to the other or is she shy & suspicious and crawls along?
    - when she sees the jump, does she prick her ears , lock on and goes 'yes! Lets go!' ( think this reaction is essential from their FIRST time over poles... Not 4th or 5th)
    - does she canter straight after the jump or trot? ( cantering proves boldness)
    - and does she throw a natural athletic shape?

    IMO even for Prelim level you have to have a horse with that natural boldness and attitude towards life, and natural cleverness and quick thinking. Then any amateur can go round prelim wether the horse has done it before or not. My Junior horse was like this and he qualified for advanced and i had never even evented before. quite honestly, he couldve done it all blimdfolded.
    Its Very time consuming and difficult training a horse that doesn't have this naturally.

    Of course there are good event horses that don't meet the above criteria as youngsters but seeing how they behave and react to loose jumping does give a fair idea of event potential .



  10. #10
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    Well, per our 1 phone conversation, this person is currently riding at 4th level and is an uber-talented dressage rider.

    The filly has never been free-jumped, but from all I've heard from folks who know more than me about jumping, free-jumping doesn't necessarily predict under-saddle jumping prowess. However, I think the filly has would enjoy XC, as she IS quite bold and forward.

    There really is no way to tell FOR SURE, but I thought we could use this example for some education on Hanoverian jumping lines (for me!).

    So, I hope I can hear from some Hanoverian pedigree geeks.



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blugal View Post
    Realistically, if the rider has never gone Prelim before, it's unlikely that she is going to do it her first time on whichever horse she buys. Ask her about her riding experience & coaching and go from there. (It's not a crime to enjoy the lower levels of any discipline on a horse you enjoy... but a lot of people like to feel important when they are horse shopping.)

    - buyers generally don't have both a trainer who can coach to PSG and one who can coach to Prelim (or a trainer who does both)

    - people who ride at those levels usually have contacts/regular lessons with someone whose opinion they can canvass (they aren't asking you, the seller)

    I know what you are saying. I've found out that most customers WAY over-predict where they are going w/a horse.

    I recall some 10 years ago a woman bought a weanling from me. Needed me to assure her this colt had "FEI quality gaits" because she wanted to go to the upper levels. Well, it's difficult to be sure w/a 4 mos old foal that their gaits are FEI (at least IMHO)...

    Anyway, fast forward to today. She LOVES the horse and both the pros she works with say it is the perfect horse for her. And this summer they FINALLY made their show debut at (wait for it)...First Level!!

    I've personally found that the majority of buyers WAAY overstate both their current riding ability AND their future riding goals. Because for someone with a job, a family and other responsibilities, saying "I want to do this and this and this" is a heck of alot easier than actually doing it.

    But if you actually tell them that...well, they just go to someone who will tell them what they want to hear and you lose the sale. It's bad enough for those close to you to tell you the truth about yourself...virtually nobody wants to hear it from a total stranger...

    But that's a whole 'nother thread...



  12. #12
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    I've personally found that the majority of buyers WAAY overstate both their current riding ability AND their future riding goals. Because for someone with a job, a family and other responsibilities, saying "I want to do this and this and this" is a heck of alot easier than actually doing it.

    But if you actually tell them that...well, they just go to someone who will tell them what they want to hear and you lose the sale. It's bad enough for those close to you to tell you the truth about yourself...virtually nobody wants to hear it from a total stranger
    Sure but then the truth of the matter is they could get a Morgan or a broke grade horse for less and they don't need a Wb, if we were being honest about their talent. But if people pay a certain price, they want that potential regardless if they use it or not and fair enough. A Wb is a big horse to feed and pay for if it's talent is no more than the average horse.

    The pedigree has lots of jumping blood. Sandro Hit was suppose to be a jumper, Escudo I, Gotthard are huge jumping talent. World Cup -yes but Weltmeyer -not so much. And the bottom line has several horses that produced world class jumpers including Winnetou.
    Many lines can produce both jumpers and dressage but not always at the same time (Sandro Hit). So it wouldn't be out of the question that the mare could jump to 4 ft but you wouldn't expect it either. I see a nice dressage horse with a good amount of jumper blood for power that may be able to jump.
    I have a little Weltmeyer granddaughter that thinks she can jump but has the worst backend over little jumps. Free jumping is not the final story but it gives you a really good idea of the form and scope. Many jumper breeders use it as a predictor for young horses. I think it is at higher levels where the courses are technical that it fails to be predictive. Just like a young horse with great gates may not be able to make it to PSG cause of other factors.

    ps - they licence jumper stallions based on free jump results.
    And then there are horses with bad form but all the scope in the world http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JljBBBiMqcw (never fails to make me smile)



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoicfish View Post
    The pedigree has lots of jumping blood. Sandro Hit was suppose to be a jumper, Escudo I, Gotthard are huge jumping talent. World Cup -yes but Weltmeyer -not so much. And the bottom line has several horses that produced world class jumpers including Winnetou.
    Many lines can produce both jumpers and dressage but not always at the same time (Sandro Hit). So it wouldn't be out of the question that the mare could jump to 4 ft but you wouldn't expect it either. I see a nice dressage horse with a good amount of jumper blood for power that may be able to jump.

    Free jumping is not the final story but it gives you a really good idea of the form and scope. Many jumper breeders use it as a predictor for young horses. I think it is at higher levels where the courses are technical that it fails to be predictive. Just like a young horse with great gates may not be able to make it to PSG cause of other factors.

    And then there are horses with bad form but all the scope in the world http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JljBBBiMqcw (never fails to make me smile)
    I agree that if someone can pay for a Ferrari, they can have one, even if they don't really need it. It's their dime.

    On jumping pedigrees: can you tell me more about the tail-female line in terms of jumpers? Most of that part is "old" Hanoverian breeding and I've had trouble doing the research on it.

    I thought I did read that Winnetou was a jump producer.

    What about Sandro Hit, I know he was supposed to be a jumper, but which are the horses in his pedigree that predicted that? Sandro?

    Tomboy jumps like an Akhal Teke! I have never seen a Teke that couldn't jump, but they jump like deer....not much of a bascule, but loads of scope.

    What was Tomboy's breeding?



  14. #14
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    Sandro was a GP showjumper, and produced Paradiso, Safari, Salido Z, Sandro Boy all Olympic horses. Tons of other GP jumpers (Sandro Song). He has a good nick with the G-line for some of those. Also in SH is more G-line and Ramiro. But it looks like SH's dam was used more for dressage than jumping. If you were to find the jumping weak spot in his pedigree it would be the dam side.

    There was a stallion up here name Wodan (by Winnetou was a huge boy and did GP jumping). I think he produced some nice dressage horses around here. Not amazing but nice.

    On the dam side there is horses (as pointed out in the other post) like World Cup and Absatz but Welty was a jump killer (very poor jumping index in the offspring), so it really doesn't matter what the rest of his pedigree has since he doesn't pass jump on. Bolero is a great dressage stallion but not jumper.
    The bottom has older horses that you can find in top pedigrees, (another Winnetou) but I do not know of any that were brilliant. This one is interesting to me http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=53500.
    Lugano II is known for his offpring and jumping.

    I don't know a lot about the old Hanoverian either and I think you would need an older German breeder or breeder of German horses for all the good details as it isn't easy to find. I bet the Verband could help.

    I met a lady with a beautiful big gelding by a well known NA jumper stallion. She paid quite a bit for him as a young horse, her UL jumper prospect. The poor horse is uncomfortable jumping cross rails for whatever reason but is so powerful and has amazing gaits. She is thinking she might have a dressage horse instead. Give your girl a try! She might surprise you one way or another.



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