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  1. #1
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    Default What's going on in the IR division at SPHT2?

    Crap! I'm at work and watching the live scores. There were more eliminations than completed rounds and just 4 jumped without faults.

    I saw most of the course yesterday. Can anyone shed some light? Was it one particular bogie fence?

    (Hey JenS did you work dressage yesterday? I looked but didn't see you)
    "Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing" - Robert Benchley
    Cotton would fight.
    http://buildingthegrove.blogspot.com/



  2. #2
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    Great, now I'm really annoyed I had to scratch!



  3. #3
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    Can't say for sure, but it was a serious course! Very well desgned.



  4. #4
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    I just got on here to ask the same thing. I know the girl who was in first, if she falls off, something crazy happened! Half the division all out for refusals is weird...



  5. #5
    ACMEeventing is offline Grand Prix Premium Member
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    Lots of 'W' in advanced as well. Was the dressage a prep for something else?
    "Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing" - Robert Benchley
    Cotton would fight.
    http://buildingthegrove.blogspot.com/



  6. #6
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    First, take a look at the OI divisions. They did not have the same problems. This is is just an indication that the course was fair and probably the IR riders were not ready for SPII. I also notice that the dressage scores were on the high side which can be another indication of problems to come (although not always).

    One has to keep in mind that many of the people who go to SPII have been riding since January and it is not their first Intermediate HT. My guess is that for some of the IR this may be one of their first rides of the year (although I have no facts to support that). Last year, after a number of people had a problem with SPII at the Intermeidate level I asked the TD and the organizer if they saw this as a first HT of the year (since it is the first Intermediate in Area 2) or one to get ready for FEI level competitions such as the Fork. Their answer was that this was the HT to prepare them for the Fork. I wonder what the goals are of the people in IR at SPII?


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  7. #7
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    ACME, my guess was in Advanced they were prepping for The Fork or Rolex, hence the withdrawals. I did notice that the OI did not have the same problem, which made the pattern really stand out. I hope that Sara is not hurt from her fall. I would be curious to know if there was one particular challenging fence (not that challenging is bad) or if the refusals were scattered. I know SPII is always a serious course, not to be taken on by the faint of heart!



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by steves View Post
    I also notice that the dressage scores were on the high side which can be another indication of problems to come (although not always).

    I just want to correct this false assumption. There has never been any indicator that dressage scores correlate to jumping faults or ability.


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  9. #9
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    Acme--I had to cancel earlier in the week because I had someone who wanted to come see my gelding who's for sale/lease. And it was a good thing I cancelled as I came down with norovirus mid-week and I'm still house-bound.
    Flip a coin. It's not what side lands that matters, but what side you were hoping for when the coin was still in the air.

    You call it boxed wine. I call it carboardeaux.



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAyers View Post
    I just want to correct this false assumption. There has never been any indicator that dressage scores correlate to jumping faults or ability.
    Then one should inform the entire eventing official community of this study/research conclusion, because every judge I have ever scribed for, or TD / course official/organizer I've sat next to for 30 minutes always has informed one another about seriously crappy horses/riders in dressage to give them a heads up -- to look out for these competitors in jumping phases due to unrideability of the horse or lack of ability of the rider. They do it all the time. I'm talking the worst tests in the division, not just a tense ride.

    I'd really like to see that indicator in writing someplace. I don't THINK (but don't know for sure) if you're right on that, Reed. (Wish I was independently wealthy, did not have to work, and could spend a week online to develop the parameters, and research the facts...)
    "Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring." -- Emerson
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by retreadeventer View Post
    Then one should inform the entire eventing official community of this study/research conclusion, because every judge I have ever scribed for, or TD / course official/organizer I've sat next to for 30 minutes always has informed one another about seriously crappy horses/riders in dressage to give them a heads up -- to look out for these competitors in jumping phases due to unrideability of the horse or lack of ability of the rider. They do it all the time. I'm talking the worst tests in the division, not just a tense ride.

    I'd really like to see that indicator in writing someplace. I don't THINK (but don't know for sure) if you're right on that, Reed. (Wish I was independently wealthy, did not have to work, and could spend a week online to develop the parameters, and research the facts...)
    Actually, the data is there. The USEF eventing safety committee reviewed this back when there was the consideration to eliminate the bottom 10% of the division after dressage. They found no such connection to justify the decision, especially at upper levels. Bad dressage scores do not correlate to XC faults. There does appear to be the OPPOSITE trend at lower levels that high dressage scores tend to have issues on XC.

    A judge's opinion is not sufficient. I know plenty of excellent dressage judges (even at the Olympic level) who are not really capable of judging suitability to go XC or to jump in the stadium.

    As I stated in the past, if dressage score was a true indicator of jumping ability and safety, GP dressage horses should be excellent jumpers from the get go. In the end, the only thing the judge can do is note the ability of the rider to function with the horse (but that is a limited score).


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  12. #12
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    Well, rarely do I disagree with RAyers, but I do this time.
    I think, sticking to the horses in the IR division of this event, and leaving out all Grand Prix horses , I would agree that the scores were a sign of, while maybe not lack of basics, a lack of training/experience for this level of test. Having observed all the tests, the scores reflected a lack of correct lateral movement, no transitions in and out of medium and extended gaits, for example.
    this caused the higher scores and in my opinion did somewhat show on the XC.
    Maybe they were pairs new to Intermediate. Also, people who don't do horses full time, can't get to the early events and probably do have to start at SPIIfor their seasons.



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by retreadeventer View Post
    Then one should inform the entire eventing official community of this study/research conclusion, because every judge I have ever scribed for, or TD / course official/organizer I've sat next to for 30 minutes always has informed one another about seriously crappy horses/riders in dressage to give them a heads up -- to look out for these competitors in jumping phases due to unrideability of the horse or lack of ability of the rider. They do it all the time. I'm talking the worst tests in the division, not just a tense ride.

    I'd really like to see that indicator in writing someplace. I don't THINK (but don't know for sure) if you're right on that, Reed. (Wish I was independently wealthy, did not have to work, and could spend a week online to develop the parameters, and research the facts...)
    Two very different things.

    Dressage judges issue "watch out for" notices to the jumping phases for riders that do not seem to be IN CONTROL of their horses, and riders who do notseem to have a good seat/balance.

    Sure, such people probably get poor dressage scores. But there are plsnty of other people with "bad" scores who do not trigger such warnings, and oftern go on to be clear and safe on the jumping phase.

    In this case, however, I suspect that BOTH the high dressage scores AND the problems on cross country are correlated with riderd going at this level for the first time.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  14. #14
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    Agree with Janet.
    As someone who works in SJ at our HTs, we do get calls from dressage to "watch out" for a horse -- usually one who was barely under control or otherwise really out of the norm (not just tense, didn't show a movement, etc.).
    Interestingly enough, these pairs are often JUST FINE in the SJ. If I had to guess it is just a matter of horse is happier jumping.
    Have never seen any data, just anecdotal.
    Now, when we send a warning from SJ over to XC, THEN it is often a carryover. Not always, but often.
    The big man -- no longer an only child

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  15. #15
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    My take on this as I was jump judging yesterday is the 4b combination caught some folks out early, if not that then the sunken road, or the pond, and then if you got that far, the tough combination 14 finished you off. My friend and I drove over to see the 14 combination, and it was a ready for prime time question. I will try to describe it, it was set up nearly perpendicular line (maybe 70 degree turn) across the steeplechase track such that the horses had to gallop along the outside rail, then turn and in about three power short strides line up and jump a MASSIVE Narrow corner, maintain line three four strides over a big table on the right so that horse could see it was actually going out the gate. The jump judges there were having issues keeping the flag up on the narrow much of the day. The pro riders knew exactly what was required to jump though this. My smurf take on the Pro events is your horse better be ready for the next level up ie if you are planning to go Advanced mid season, you should be able to skip around the Intermediate here. It was not an early season "easy" Intermediate. I know I saw some of the best horseflesh in eventing jump yesterday.
    Last edited by gardenie; Mar. 24, 2013 at 07:06 PM. Reason: correct


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  16. #16
    ACMEeventing is offline Grand Prix Premium Member
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    I drove past that combination several times in the days preceding the show and I was like, say what? They came off two big gallop fences (on a racetrack!) and then had to power down to that combination.
    "Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing" - Robert Benchley
    Cotton would fight.
    http://buildingthegrove.blogspot.com/



  17. #17
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    Yes, ACME, it was a "say what?!", because we were at the big brush as they galloped over that, and then the next big gallop fence, and then hello wake up...as I say, it was a ready for prime time question any way you cut it.



  18. #18
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    Thanks for the info, gardenie!



  19. #19
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    Just wanted to point out in regards to the dressage scores that the IR division had a different judge from the other two divisions. Sure, some of the tests were probably not great, but there were some horses in that division who usually score VERY well, who did not score where they usually are. The different judges could help explain some (not all) of the difference in scores between divisions.

    Also, a friend who was riding in that division retired her horse very early on course due to tack malfunction causing her to have little control. She got the horse pulled up and called it a day!



  20. #20
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    The entire course was a ready for prime time deal. One of the best courses (Prelim through Advanced) I have seen at the park in a long time. Excellent use of terrain, great accuracy questions, beautifully and meticulously presented.
    4B was difficult if you tried to ride it as a 90 degree turn. If you angled the two fences it rode beautifully. The sunken road was tough, the first water, the corner question, the second water and the tobacco barn all required a high degree of control and accuracy.

    Hats off to Hugh Lochore, the new course designer.


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