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  1. #61
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    Dec. 18, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
    Every vet comes out of vet school just as qualified in equine tooth care as an MD is qualified in human tooth care.
    But it's a horse, not a person. The other horses don't care if your horse has ugly teeth.

    I hear your point but I don't think it's all that effective in a country where horses are not considered *neglected* so long as food and water are made available to them (even a flake or two of weedy hay, and water with larvae in it). That is how it works in my state. No one is going to be up in arms that you are having your horse's teeth floated by *just* a vet.

    I don't see how it is such a horrible thing for a state to require an "equine dentist" to have EITHER IAED certification OR a veterinary license to practice. I'm not sure who is getting short-changed here in your argument....nor am I understanding your unconstitutional issue...who is having their rights taken away?




  2. #62
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    Nov. 22, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabicon View Post
    Here is credit hours and seems to be a lot about teeth and dentistry in vet school
    http://www.cvm.okstate.edu/index.php...ces&Itemid=252
    Sounds like a pretty decent optional equine dentistry clinical rotation electives in thatcurriculum.



  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by S1969 View Post
    . . .I don't see how it is such a horrible thing for a state to require an "equine dentist" to have EITHER IAED certification OR a veterinary license to practice.
    You might look at it differently if you had been hand floating teeth without sedation for a living for 20 years and suddenly you were put out of business by people that can't do the same job without power tools and drugs. And if you had to take a test to prove you could do a safe float after making a living doing it for 20 years, then you might want that same test or some equivalent level of qualification applied to a DVM that just went out and bought some power tools and never did any clinical rotation in dentistry when they went to vet school.

    I'm not sure who is getting short-changed here in your argument....nor am I understanding your unconstitutional issue...who is having their rights taken away?
    An established equine dentist is having their living taken away or potentially forced to become an employee under the supervision of someone with less experience and possibly no training other than a few lectures in vet school. Now the vet gets a cut of your business . . . or you are out of business.




  4. #64
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    Oct. 10, 2007
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    Well my vet is a newer age. He has been out about 10 yrs practicing now. He does use power tools and hand tools depending on what he is doing and what needs to be done. He isn't all or nothing with just one tool.
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole



  5. #65
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    Nov. 23, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
    You might look at it differently if you had been hand floating teeth without sedation for a living for 20 years and suddenly you were put out of business by people that can't do the same job without power tools and drugs. And if you had to take a test to prove you could do a safe float after making a living doing it for 20 years, then you might want that same test or some equivalent level of qualification applied to a DVM that just went out and bought some power tools and never did any clinical rotation in dentistry when they went to vet school.

    An established equine dentist is having their living taken away or potentially forced to become an employee under the supervision of someone with less experience and possibly no training other than a few lectures in vet school. Now the vet gets a cut of your business . . . or you are out of business.

    Yes. This. Exactly. And the horses get the short end of the "experience" stick.


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  6. #66
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    Sep. 8, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
    You might look at it differently if you had been hand floating teeth without sedation for a living for 20 years and suddenly you were put out of business....:
    Exactly. Things need to move forward. There have been many advancements in dentistry and just because someone has done the same old rasp and no sedation for 20 years does not mean that is the best thing for the horse. Going away are the primitive days of blindly putting a rasp in a horses mouth. There is so much more to it and many things that can be done to make our horses teeth last longer and make our horses more comfortable. If we are just going to say "good enough" because this is what was done a thousand years ago then we should all just move to a cave and throw out our antibiotics!



  7. #67
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    May. 21, 2012
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    Tom- I really enjoyed the pictures of your equine dentist (and I'm assuming that's your horse) Both very photogenic even in unusual circumstances!

    Also- to the OP- although the bickering may be annoying to you because you just had a simple question- I just wanted to say that I am sort of enjoying hearing both arguments as I'm in a bit of a pickle right now.

    I've been in the process of transitioning from an old fashioned country cow vet- to a more high falootin' equine specialty vet. The old vet did very low key, low stress floats- and the new vet complimented the condition of my horse's teeth when she examined them at an appt unrelated to dentistry. My horses are all due for a dental check up- but the new vet will only do them at her clinic in a stock with power tools. Doing my whole herd would require two trips in the trailer an hour away. I have started to think about calling a horse dentist to do this work at my farm- and then the vet can do the spring thing here too- without having to worry about the dental part of it.

    If only I knew an Equine dentist.

    Saw an ad at the feed store today, it advertised that no power tools are used- rarely sedates. So- what I might have thought was not so much of a selling point - was his angle on the market he was approaching. It made me wonder- and then I got home tonight and saw this thread.



  8. #68
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    Dec. 21, 2008
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    I think both vets and equine dentists can do a good job. But I don't like the idea that no sedation and hand floats automatically make you do a superior job. If you're only rasping you aren't doing your job. You need to be able to look for pockets and use a pick to evaluate for periodontal disease. If you can do that without sedation good for you but if you skip it because you don't use sedation then you aren't doing a good job. Also vets can do rads if there is a question about a tooth and Its viability.


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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmwines01 View Post
    I think both vets and equine dentists can do a good job. But I don't like the idea that no sedation and hand floats automatically make you do a superior job. If you're only rasping you aren't doing your job. You need to be able to look for pockets and use a pick to evaluate for periodontal disease. If you can do that without sedation good for you but if you skip it because you don't use sedation then you aren't doing a good job. Also vets can do rads if there is a question about a tooth and Its viability.
    IME, no sedation and hand floats mean a pretty bad job. Add that to the people that don't use a light or speculum and you have a cave man with a sharp tool in there hand pointing it in a dark hole. There are so many things that get missed when the 3 basics of dentals are not done. Pockets, and periodontal disease are just the start of things checked in a mouth. Diastamas, cavities, cracked teeth, color of teeth which gives the general health of the tooth, table angles, tarter. I'm sure that I am missing some things but that gives people the idea.

    One of the big things you pointed out is that vets can do rads. They also can handle, or refer to another vet that can handle those odd things so that your horse doesn't suffer. What do you think some lay dentists do when they see those things? If they see those things. They ignore them because they do not want the vet involved.



  10. #70
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    Nov. 30, 2009
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    I have come full circle in the last twenty years. I Started out with the old "quickie" float the vets used to do. Then i transitioned to the $300/ horse "performance" float. Required speculum (bad for TMJ), power tools in the hands of newly educated vets (can take off TOO MUCH, TOO FAST with no way to replace), day(s) off with bute for the TMJ stuff.
    YUCK.
    I now use a "tooth guy" with 30 Years of experience using hand tools. $105/ horse. No sedation. He knows how to handle horses and does not need to use it. I have seen board certified DMV tooth specialists, and I have made my choice based on broad experience. The only be vet I would use for teeth has transitioned away from power tools because they take too much tooth off, and horses only grow a certain amount of tooth. Once it's gone it's gone.
    Last edited by arlosmine; Mar. 24, 2013 at 12:05 AM.


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  11. #71
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    Did I miss something - the equine dentist does not want the vet involved?

    I find that they would definitely refer to a vet if they saw something that was untoward. Several work in tandem with vets.
    Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique


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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by arlosmine View Post
    transitioned away from power tools because they take too much tooth,,,,,,
    That is one of the most ignorant things anyone could ever say! The same can be said for hand tools too if you want to be ignorant about using them.



  13. #73
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    Nov. 22, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plainandtall View Post
    Tom- I really enjoyed the pictures of your equine dentist (and I'm assuming that's your horse) Both very photogenic even in unusual circumstances!
    All 3 of them are mine. The black one is the mother of the other two sorrel geldings. She is 31 years old and has had 7 foals. It was because my mare suffered severely for several weeks after being power floated by an "certified equine dental instructor" and that ordeal lasted 3 hours, cost $350 required her to be tranqued 3 times. Then I got ripped off for another $150 for correcting my gelding's "overbite" which I found out later was just a slight of hand trick and he didn't have an over bite. In the past I had my horses hand floated by a local vet that didn't use sedation unless the horse was problematic.

    I decided to try the high falutin' certified dental instructor at the high falutin' vet clinic with all the fancy stuff to hold up the horse's head and keep its mouth open. Hey, I thought, my horses are worth it! But it was all smoke and mirrors - lots of smoke. Well I don't know what that guy was fixing because my horses seemed to eat better before he worked on them than they did after - not to mention their trauma from having their heads stuck on the end of a stick for an hour while their brains were fried by drugs.

    So I went to a few seminars and did some homework on this tooth floating deal. Then I started looking for a dentist that worked on high end horses. When I found somebody that had a track record for winners (literally) at New York, Kentucky, Florida, Maryland, and Delaware and a bunch of FEI and USET top performers and the respect and high regard of many veterinarians and trainers in the performance world, that was my guy.

    Sorry, but you don't get to be the dentist for those people and stick with them for decades if your work is sub par.

    Also- to the OP- although the bickering may be annoying to you because you just had a simple question- I just wanted to say that I am sort of enjoying hearing both arguments as I'm in a bit of a pickle right now.
    Critical thinking will do that to ya.

    I've been in the process of transitioning from an old fashioned country cow vet- to a more high falootin' equine specialty vet. The old vet did very low key, low stress floats- and the new vet complimented the condition of my horse's teeth when she examined them at an appt unrelated to dentistry. My horses are all due for a dental check up- but the new vet will only do them at her clinic in a stock with power tools. Doing my whole herd would require two trips in the trailer an hour away. I have started to think about calling a horse dentist to do this work at my farm- and then the vet can do the spring thing here too- without having to worry about the dental part of it.
    I'm all about giving my horses the high falutin' treatment as long as the results hold up to the sales pitch. But having been blinded by the bling, and taken for a ride, I'll stick with the guy with a track record with high falutin' horses and high falutin' horsemen and can get the job done without knocking my horses out. Thank you.

    If only I knew an Equine dentist.
    If you're on the east coast (I-95 corridor) between up state New York and South Florida

    800-24-FLOAT



  14. #74
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    Dec. 5, 2001
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    virginia
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    ack guys let it go already;

    I've had my horse worked on my a dentist (no sedation and hand float) as well as a vet who specializes in dentistry and used power tools and sedation. Horse is same after with either one..... I do not ride the day of the float (unless I rode before the apt) and I usually ride in a hackamore the next day. No big deal.. Both are excellent at their work... and the only reason I switched around is b/c I moved from one persons locality to the others..



  15. #75

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    If the horse can't go back to work immediately after their float then their mouth has been traumatized and the float is a failure. A simple float shouldn't cause soreness or necessitate recovery time. A major shortcoming of visual dentistry is how wide the mouth must be opened. I can slip my hand into a smaller speculum opening than any peekaboo floater doing visual dentistry. Power tools are bigger at the business end and require a wider speculum opening as well. If you spent a lifetime feeling the gentle curves and natural topography of a horses mouth you wouldn't dream of grinding it with a cumbersome powertool.
    The bottom line is there are far too few floaters to care for all the mouths out there yet propagandists [edit] will never tire of slandering those of us who aren't DVMs. Whatever backwater it hails from must be sorry place to be a horse.
    Last edited by Moderator 1; Mar. 24, 2013 at 08:19 PM.


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  16. #76
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    Dec. 12, 2010
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    All the back and forth on this thread has been very interesting. To be honest I did not know that it was the norm for some people NOT to sedate for floating. I guess in my area it's just not common for a horse to be fully awake for floating. At least I've never seen it. I'm learning quite a bit.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/NBChoice http://nbchoice.blogspot.com/
    The New Banner's Choice- 1994 ASB Mare
    Dennis The Menace Too- 1999 ASB Gelding
    Dreamacres Sublime- 2008 ASB Gelding



  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBChoice View Post
    All the back and forth on this thread has been very interesting. To be honest I did not know that it was the norm for some people NOT to sedate for floating. I guess in my area it's just not common for a horse to be fully awake for floating. At least I've never seen it. I'm learning quite a bit.
    I don't think it is the "norm" - I think both options are routinely available, although I think that it would be less likely to have a power float without sedation (I've heard it could be done but I'd never allow it on one of my horses).

    However, I'm not sure if "non-vet" equine dentist are legally allowed to sedate horses - maybe in some states? That is one of my concerns with the "no sedation" claim - whether it's because they are so darn good they don't need it; or whether they do the best they can without it because they can't provide sedation without a vet coming out as well.



  18. #78
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    Sep. 16, 2003
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    OP
    Of 100/150 I've owned/managed/trained in the past 20 years 2 have needed sedation for 'normal' floating, maybe 3.
    What Toothgrinder says is how the tooth guys (all of them guys, as a matter of interest) describe it. It's not a visual but a manual thing. Sort of like palp-ing a mare vs. ultrasound. It's an art.
    * www.huntersrest.net -- Virginia hunt country's best Bed-and-Breakfast-and-Barn.



  19. #79
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    A sincere related question
    Are most (all?) horseowners not capable of sedating one's own horse should the horse need it for floating, or any procedure.
    * www.huntersrest.net -- Virginia hunt country's best Bed-and-Breakfast-and-Barn.


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  20. #80
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    Well, when my former horse needed sedation I had it on hand and had my BO give it IV. No big deal. My dentist will use power tools for really tough things- like my guy's hooks in the way back- but he has many years of doing this, so he normally doesn't need them. In discussions with him about it he says the problem is that it is easier to take off too much because it's a power tool, not a hand tool- so he'll rasp a bit, then check, then rasp, check, etc. A power tool is (obviously) much quicker and a lot less delicate.

    He's used by all sorts of big barns, as well as a couple of zoos, and has an amazing way with the horses. Even my ass of a horse trusted him, and only needed sedation when the dentist had to use a power tool the first time.

    There is a lot of bad and good dentistry out there, by DVMs and non-DVMs. I've experienced both, and have paid for bad/no results. I'm happy to have found this one because he is really, truly excellent. But again, if either of my horses were unable to be ridden after a normal float I'd be talking about it with my dentist and thinking about finding a new one.
    You can take a line and say it isn't straight- but that won't change its shape. Jets to Brazil



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