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  1. #741
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Better than having a handful only and most of those trolling for animal rights extremists ... on a horse forum, from all places.
    That has never made much sense to me, but I guess that is the internet for you.
    It doesn't make sense because there are no animal rights extremists on this board. Only pro-slaughter and anti-slaughter. No RaRa's exist here. It's really simple to confrim that. People on this board own horses, ride horses, use horses. RaRa's do none of those things.


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  2. #742
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Every year over 100,000 American horses are transported to Canada and Mexico to be slaughtered and their meat shipped to Europe for human consumption. Horse meat is considered a delicacy in Europe costing around $20. per pound

    http://www.americanhorsemeat.com/

    Beef is 4-5$ per pound in U S for grass fed
    OK, so 100,000 are disposed of this way. Obviously, any owner of a horse he doesn't want to keep can access this system and dispose of the horse via the slaughter industry. Just on a short segment of the East Coast, there are no lack of convenient places to hook up with the KB via auction. Easy, convenient, you even make money?

    Sooooo? Why aren't more people doing THAT instead of, as you claim, abandoning, starving, abusing, neglecting, and CL'ing horses that would be better served by a ride to Canada? You talk like it can't be done right now, but it IS being done every day and the option has always been available. Yet people are not using it.

    What's the reason for that? Maybe they need some better P.R.?


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #743
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispatcher View Post
    It doesn't make sense because there are no animal rights extremists on this board. Only pro-slaughter and anti-slaughter. No RaRa's exist here. It's really simple to confrim that. People on this board own horses, ride horses, use horses. RaRa's do none of those things.
    Not everyone. I can think of at least one pro-slaughter person who doesn't own, ride or use a horse. There are a couple of both pro and con people who post here only about slaughter, certain rescues and seized horses. I also can remember at least one greenie RARA. However, the overwhelming majority of us who have been posting for any length of time are not RARAs. We might be anti or pro slaughter, but that doesn't make us extreme activists.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant

    Member of Kathy S. has me on ignore club.



  4. #744
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cielo Azure View Post
    8-20 percent of our meat is imported. The USDA estimates are that 14% ofthese meats are from South America (SA). IF that meat is processed (cooked, frozen, mixed with other ingredients), it does not have to be labeled as anything other than coming from the USA (Cool rules/USDA). Much of SA still uses "hook and shackle" methods for slaughter, which most would agree is inhumane. Much of SA still processes cattle and horse in the same plants, with little inspection and no separation. The USDA is not testing imported meats via DNA analysis to see if it contains horse meat and they have no intentions of doing so. What in the world makes anyone think that if they are eating processed foods, they aren't already eating horsemeat???? Take off your blinders folks, you ARE eating horse meat.
    http://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/...x#.UU9nCltATKA
    But we must stop slaughter because of all the horrible chemicals that will kill us, and we in the US (according to this post) eat it in our processed foods,
    yet I can't recall a single headline of "Sick/Dead Person Found to Have Bute in Their System Causing Their Deadly Illness" (here or in Europe).... am I the only one who sees a disconnect here?

    If (according to many) slaughter must be stopped because all horsemeat is loaded with chemicals because we all give our horses massive amounts of medication and the TBs are all rife with deadly chemicals and the slaughterhouse aren't properly testing (again, according to many on this and other threads), why aren't the headlines full of stories of people becoming ill from this horribly tainted meat?

    This (eating horse) has been going on long enough that those nasty regular horsemeat eaters should be sick and dying from regularly loading their bodies with deadly chemicals via horsemeat.....but where are the stories?


    3 members found this post helpful.

  5. #745
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    MoonoverMississippi, it really doesn't matter if there's proof (although I suspect up to now, no one in Europe was looking for Bute and other chemicals in meat), but whether those who consume horse meat care, now that it's been exposed. That remains to be seen.

    Look at pet food. We know that rendered animals and road kill can go into pet food. But many of us still buy the suspect dog and cat food.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant

    Member of Kathy S. has me on ignore club.



  6. #746
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Not everyone. I can think of at least one pro-slaughter person who doesn't own, ride or use a horse. There are a couple of both pro and con people who post here only about slaughter, certain rescues and seized horses. I also can remember at least one greenie RARA. However, the overwhelming majority of us who have been posting for any length of time are not RARAs. We might be anti or pro slaughter, but that doesn't make us extreme activists.
    Well that put's me out. I do not own one and have not ridden since last oct.
    But I have owned and ridden horses for the better part of the last 40 years. Does that count?
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  7. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    But we must stop slaughter because of all the horrible chemicals that will kill us, and we in the US (according to this post) eat it in our processed foods,
    yet I can't recall a single headline of "Sick/Dead Person Found to Have Bute in Their System Causing Their Deadly Illness" (here or in Europe).... am I the only one who sees a disconnect here?

    If (according to many) slaughter must be stopped because all horsemeat is loaded with chemicals because we all give our horses massive amounts of medication and the TBs are all rife with deadly chemicals and the slaughterhouse aren't properly testing (again, according to many on this and other threads), why aren't the headlines full of stories of people becoming ill from this horribly tainted meat?

    This (eating horse) has been going on long enough that those nasty regular horsemeat eaters should be sick and dying from regularly loading their bodies with deadly chemicals via horsemeat.....but where are the stories?
    First of all, my research into the banned substances stated that it was not Phenylbutazolidone in the horsemeat that was as much a human danger as the metabolite Oxybutazolidone that horses convert from phenyl.
    I have no idea if, in humans they look for that metabolite or not, I doubt it, because...

    Since when is the cause of every death determined?
    Since when is every cancer death investigated to the point of determining what factors did/did not cause that cancer?
    The myriad of other factors that could lead to cancer or death in the life of someone who also happens to consume horsemeat is probably pretty broad. How is determining what the cause was even accomplished? And at what cost and who pays that cost? And to what end?

    Most often these discoveries come by chance [when research into another issues is being done] or because a huge issue is determined and the cause is financially worth determining. I don't think either of those applies to banned medications in horsemeat, at least yet.

    Is death from ingestion of drug laden horsemeat common?
    Who knows. And we probably will never know.



  8. #748
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    Well that put's me out. I do not own one and have not ridden since last oct.
    But I have owned and ridden horses for the better part of the last 40 years. Does that count?
    Let me rephrase that to clarify. Does not own, ride or use a horse and has no horse keeping, riding or use knowledge to contribute.

    I can remember a year or so ago that an HSUS rep was on here posting as well with no apparent horse knowledge as well. So it does happen, but for the most part, is a fairly new poster with an agenda.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant

    Member of Kathy S. has me on ignore club.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  9. #749
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    38 pages over a year old video.


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  10. #750
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    First of all, my research into the banned substances stated that it was not Phenylbutazolidone in the horsemeat that was as much a human danger as the metabolite Oxybutazolidone that horses convert from phenyl.
    I have no idea if, in humans they look for that metabolite or not, I doubt it, because...

    Since when is the cause of every death determined?
    Since when is every cancer death investigated to the point of determining what factors did/did not cause that cancer?
    The myriad of other factors that could lead to cancer or death in the life of someone who also happens to consume horsemeat is probably pretty broad. How is determining what the cause was even accomplished? And at what cost and who pays that cost? And to what end?

    Most often these discoveries come by chance [when research into another issues is being done] or because a huge issue is determined and the cause is financially worth determining. I don't think either of those applies to banned medications in horsemeat, at least yet.

    Is death from ingestion of drug laden horsemeat common?
    Who knows. And we probably will never know.
    But you don't think that, if there were illnesses or deaths as a result that it would be in "clusters" of horsemeat-eating people? When illnesses/deaths show up in certain "clusters" of the populations it is usually investigated. Even when COD is listed as cancer, when it seems limited to populations with common factors, people (often researchers) take notice.

    Now, if horsemeat is, as some suggest, a "fancy, expensive delicacy", you would certainly see the effects in a very limited population based on income. I would think that if that were the case, it would certainly have been noted and research done to narrow down the cause (rich people get that response).

    If it is "the other cheap meat" then the clusters of illness/death should be noticeable in certain populations where horsemeat is more acceptable (since many have stated that the "normal, average" European does not eat horsemeat anymore).
    It would be interesting to research this and see what other factors are common to the horsemeat-eating groups.

    But if drugs in the horsemeat are "the hot button" topic it would benefit those against slaughter to argue that point with those who are actually eating it, rather than on a board of horse lovers in the US. Again, to eliminate it you must eliminate demand; pushing it "underground" certainly is not in the horses' best interest.



  11. #751
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    But you don't think that, if there were illnesses or deaths as a result that it would be in "clusters" of horsemeat-eating people? When illnesses/deaths show up in certain "clusters" of the populations it is usually investigated. Even when COD is listed as cancer, when it seems limited to populations with common factors, people (often researchers) take notice.
    No I don't.
    There are probably other causes of the illnesses these people would die from that are more prevalent and known and therefore attributed as the cause of the illness that leads to death.

    If you know X, Y and Z cause cancer... why would you then, in patients who did/had X, Y, and/or Z and died from that illness, look for Q?

    And who's to say the horsemeat alone causes the cancer or other COD? It could be the eating of horsemeat in conjunction with habit A, B, and/or C is what does it.
    Or perhaps those who potentially would die of illness related to consumption of drug laden meats die of something else before the drug meat related disease/illness is apparent.



  12. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispatcher View Post
    It doesn't make sense because there are no animal rights extremists on this board. Only pro-slaughter and anti-slaughter. No RaRa's exist here. It's really simple to confrim that. People on this board own horses, ride horses, use horses. RaRa's do none of those things.
    Not according to some of the regular pro-slaughter voices who frequent COTH. In their world, anyone opposed to slaughter IS an animal rights extremist and RARA, as has been voiced over and over again.
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg


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  13. #753
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Let me rephrase that to clarify. Does not own, ride or use a horse and has no horse keeping, riding or use knowledge to contribute.

    I can remember a year or so ago that an HSUS rep was on here posting as well with no apparent horse knowledge as well. So it does happen, but for the most part, is a fairly new poster with an agenda.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  14. #754
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    Let me re-phrase this:

    Why are all the neglected horses we see on CL not being disposed of via slaughter?

    Stop flinging names at each other and discuss the actual problem: What relationship there is, if any, between the "unwanted horse problem" and the ready availability of slaughter.

    Of course, demagoguery is always more fun.



  15. #755
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    Let me re-phrase this:

    Why are all the neglected horses we see on CL not being disposed of via slaughter?

    Stop flinging names at each other and discuss the actual problem: What relationship there is, if any, between the "unwanted horse problem" and the ready availability of slaughter.

    Of course, demagoguery is always more fun.
    Let me see.....

    Oh, some places there is no auction that takes horses anymore.
    selling through auction is bad.

    and yeah, they want a fee....

    and some peole are plain stupid and don't see what's in front of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  16. #756
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    Once again, I'll remind some of you that think slaughter prevents abuse/neglect-
    The largest horse neglect case in TX was just outside Dallas when Dallas Crowne and Beltex were open. Over 200 horses...owned by a VET.


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  17. #757
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    Not according to some of the regular pro-slaughter voices who frequent COTH. In their world, anyone opposed to slaughter IS an animal rights extremist and RARA, as has been voiced over and over again.
    Yes they do. And I'm telling them they are wrong about that.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  18. #758
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    There was a study done some time ago that found there was a certain percentage of people that just would not seek either rescue or an auction as a solution to their problem.
    Sometimes rescues just can't help. I don't remember why.
    Up here I'm hearing less about people finding extra horses in their pasture/barn or trailer. When the economy really tanked, that was almost a daily occurrence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    Let me re-phrase this:

    Why are all the neglected horses we see on CL not being disposed of via slaughter?

    Stop flinging names at each other and discuss the actual problem: What relationship there is, if any, between the "unwanted horse problem" and the ready availability of slaughter.

    Of course, demagoguery is always more fun.



  19. #759
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    Why are all the neglected horses we see on CL not being disposed of via slaughter?

    Stop flinging names at each other and discuss the actual problem: What relationship there is, if any, between the "unwanted horse problem" and the ready availability of slaughter.
    well, the slaughterhouses prefer young, fat, healthy horses, not skinny neglected horses nor do they really want lame old horses. They want good, tender meat they can sell for high prices. They don't care about "the unwanted horse problem".




    as for ill-health from eating horsemeat, there's this:

    Euro Surveill. 1998 Aug;3(8):85-86.

    Human outbreak of trichinellosis associated with the consumption of horsemeat in Italy.

    Pozio E, Sacchini D, Boni P, Tamburrini A, Alberici F, Paterlini F.


    Am J Trop Med Hyg. 1998 Oct;59(4):615-9.

    A multifocal outbreak of trichinellosis linked to horse meat imported from North America to France in 1993.

    Ancelle T, Dupouy-Camet J, Desenclos JC, Maillot E, Savage-Houze S, Charlet F, Drucker J, Moren A.


    Source

    Epicentre, Groupe Européen d'Expertise en Epidémiologie Pratique, Hôpital Cochin, Université René Descartes, Paris, France


    2 members found this post helpful.

  20. #760
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    Let me see.....

    Oh, some places there is no auction that takes horses anymore.
    selling through auction is bad.

    and yeah, they want a fee....

    and some peole are plain stupid and don't see what's in front of them.
    Well, let me tell you how it works around here; as long as you've paid your phone bill, there is actually no EASIER way to get rid of a horse!

    There are at least 7 dealers I can name within a 40-mile radius. (Where there are riders, there are horse dealers, guaranteed.) While all these guys prefer to flip horses in the $1500 to $25K range, if you call them up and say you've got one who just needs to disappear, they'll be right on it and hand you over a minimal check.

    Load 'im on the trailer and believe whatever makes you happy. Several degrees of separation, no need to be there, watching the KB's bid on him or even drive him to the sale. The dealer does all that. You will not ask, and he will not tell, who purchased the horse. That's a proprietary matter of the dealer's private business. Maybe it was purchased as a camp horse. Maybe it went for meat. (Maybe, the guy put 30 days' training on it and sold it for thousands more than he paid you!)

    If you try and nail him down to an answer, the dealer will always say, "Oh, right, that one--he got bought by a real nice family who said they'll give him a great home!" Smile. Former owner goes home fat, dumb, and happy. And don't think for ONE minute that isn't where your favorite sainted schoolie or your aging Big Eq horse or your broken-down jumper or barren broodmare didn't go. Some of the old-time farriers are happy to do it, too.

    BTW, these dealers based in the Northeast have been known to drive their own rigs as far as Canada and Oklahoma. They think nothing of it. That's how they buy loads of nice horses for a fifth of what they'll sell for on the East Coast. So don't tell me auction proximity matters; the closest ones here are less than 2 hours away and the dealers will be there anyway.

    The only impediment to getting rid of an unwanted horse, profitably, at least in southern New England is the voice in your head telling you that it's just not right.

    Which is why, here again, the slaughter pipeline is NOT solving the problem of "surplus" horses being neglected.

    What I have seen most often are horses that are VERY MUCH INDEED "wanted," it's just that their owners are ignorant of proper care.


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