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  1. #701
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    There can be a 3rd party observer. PETA and HSUS are not it. and their track record does not suggest their pick would be a good choice either.
    Ummm.... that would be where the "agreed upon by both sides" part I mentioned comes in. I'm not suggesting HSUS gets to send in the carriage horse protestor crowd, I'm suggesting a party (or parties) both sides can at least agree would be impartial.


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  2. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    Ummm.... that would be where the "agreed upon by both sides" part I mentioned comes in. I'm not suggesting HSUS gets to send in the carriage horse protestor crowd, I'm suggesting a party (or parties) both sides can at least agree would be impartial.
    LOL. sorry

    NO negotiations with terrorists....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.



  3. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBXPony View Post
    but if you can haul them straight to the plant will that not make it rise?
    Not if there is someone at the plant looking for stolen horses. As has been done in previous places.

    And right now, they are more likely to end somewhere where these things are not tracked.



  4. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    Ummm.... that would be where the "agreed upon by both sides" part I mentioned comes in. I'm not suggesting HSUS gets to send in the carriage horse protestor crowd, I'm suggesting a party (or parties) both sides can at least agree would be impartial.
    Ok, I will repeat, there are already companies that do just that, have for several years now, no need to try to reinvent the wheel.



  5. #705
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunny59 View Post
    It has been proven that mechanics fix car problems that are non-existent, does that stop you from getting your car fixed. It has been proven that doctors cut off the wrong leg, does that stop you from going to the doctor. It has been proven that people can steal your identity from you mail, have you stopped all mail delivery?

    the answer to all of these and to your question is the same. You do what you can to minimize the risk. You enforce the rules and you monitor enforcment.

    There are criminals and slackers in all walks of life. Just put in the control systems and do your best. Will things be 100%? probably not.....

    And again, as far as all diseases, you handle it like all other animals in out food chain...... or do you worry about all the other meat you eat? Or are you vegetarian?
    I completely agree, 100%. But all those industries aren't encouraging their respective states to pass anti-whistle blower laws, are they?
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  6. #706
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunny59 View Post
    It has been proven that mechanics fix car problems that are non-existent, does that stop you from getting your car fixed. It has been proven that doctors cut off the wrong leg, does that stop you from going to the doctor. It has been proven that people can steal your identity from you mail, have you stopped all mail delivery?

    the answer to all of these and to your question is the same. You do what you can to minimize the risk. You enforce the rules and you monitor enforcment.

    There are criminals and slackers in all walks of life. Just put in the control systems and do your best. Will things be 100%? probably not.....

    And again, as far as all diseases, you handle it like all other animals in out food chain...... or do you worry about all the other meat you eat? Or are you vegetarian?

    which is why I fix my own car I am picky about my meat, but that is because I always have prefered veggies over meat. I eat meat sparingly.



  7. #707
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Ok, I will repeat, there are already companies that do just that, have for several years now, no need to try to reinvent the wheel.
    Apparently the anti side doesn't feel they are impartial, or why would this discussion taking place? If there was someone the average joe felt was looking out for the animal's best interests, someone they felt wasn't in the SH pocket the antis' message wouldn't be getting the traction it is, would it?

    Again, the SH doesn't have to do anything to make people more comfortable, they can just continue on dealing with the legislation, the wild stories and fake tapes, and the growing public sentiment against them.... or they can try to make a few concessions to avoid much of that. Their choice.


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  8. #708
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    Apparently the anti side doesn't feel they are impartial, or why would this discussion taking place? If there was someone the average joe felt was looking out for the animal's best interests, someone they felt wasn't in the SH pocket the antis' message wouldn't be getting the traction it is, would it?

    Again, the SH doesn't have to do anything to make people more comfortable, they can just continue on dealing with the legislation, the wild stories and fake tapes, and the growing public sentiment against them.... or they can try to make a few concessions to avoid much of that. Their choice.
    well, isn't that the whole problem: the anti side does tno think anything short of a 100% ban is good enough.

    If the horse is dead, it won't be abused.
    and people should not eat meat - hence the uproar over horses becoming dinner....
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.



  9. #709
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Horses are an easy source of cash for thieves. They can be quickly sold at saleyards, making it difficult to track the thief. Horses in areas that are not well supervised are at highest risk. Horses can also be stolen through civil theft such as bad leases, family or friend disputes, or through divorce. Once stolen, the horses can end up going to slaughter, resold at auction, or end up as riding mounts. The more times they are resold, the harder it is to find a stolen horse. Thieves are only interested in a short-term profit and do not care about where the horse ends up.

    Accrding to the USDA sales of stolen horses to slaughter are risky due to ongoing stolen horse registration bodies and the ongoing checks against current data bases.

    Google stolen horss and you will also read heart warming stories about reunificationb after many years with a loved horse.

    This is just the latest red herring as the Ra'Ra's have failed at their other oints regarding slaughter.
    Wickipedia?


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  10. #710
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    LOL. sorry

    NO negotiations with terrorists....

    LOL, I agree, but I was using HSUS as that is who everyone keeps mentioning; make it a horse council, whatever. The takeaway is that if someone was observing who interested average people felt like they could trust to be telling the truth about what was going on much of the anti message wouldn't be getting the traction it is.

    As a average person, I see the extremists posting videos, pictures, and stories about atrocities, and I hear the SH and their proponents saying "nothing to see here, trust us, it's all okay, they're lying......but we aren't interested in doing a damn thing to make you believe us." Yeah, that will work.



  11. #711
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    well, isn't that the whole problem: the anti side does tno think anything short of a 100% ban is good enough.If the horse is dead, it won't be abused.
    and people should not eat meat - hence the uproar over horses becoming dinner....
    Right, no sense beating a dead horse (couldn't resist!).
    The issue isn't changing the minds of the antis (never happen), it is informing and/or changing the minds of the general public who could be put at ease with the idea if they knew it was done humanely.

    The antis aren't the audience that needs addressed, it is the average person.


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  12. #712
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    LOL, I agree, but I was using HSUS as that is who everyone keeps mentioning; make it a horse council, whatever. The takeaway is that if someone was observing who interested average people felt like they could trust to be telling the truth about what was going on much of the anti message wouldn't be getting the traction it is.

    As a average person, I see the extremists posting videos, pictures, and stories about atrocities, and I hear the SH and their proponents saying "nothing to see here, trust us, it's all okay, they're lying......but we aren't interested in doing a damn thing to make you believe us." Yeah, that will work.
    Who said they are not doing anything?
    Just because they don't organize protests and whip their followers all over the internet doesn't mean they are not being proactive.

    Remember, they have a job to do, a plant to run, plus inspectors from several different government agencies checking them out, USDA, OSHA, EPA and such, have independent contractors monitoring how they do what they do and reporting to their customers and who knows what other protocols they have for managing it all.

    Animal rights extremist groups, on the other hand, don't have anything to do than stand there and take potshots at them, that is their only goal in life, other than getting the gullible to donate to them to save those poor little kittens in their mailing envelopes, asking for more money.



  13. #713
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    This is why the factory farms and slaughter houses want Ag Gag rules. They don't want to be outed. Tell me why that won't happen in a horse slaughter plant.

    http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...deo/57179112/1
    Thanks for finding that Laura, THAT is what I was referring to when posting to Bluey!!
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.


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  14. #714
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Who said they are not doing anything?
    Just because they don't organize protests and whip their followers all over the internet doesn't mean they are not being proactive.
    So what are they doing to ensure that the average-joe-leaning-pro-slaughter person feels that they doing things humanely and feels justified in supporting them in the face of all the negative publicity, the stories of abuses, stories of bad inspectors who allow abuses to happen, etc.?

    Because I'm that Joe, and I got nothing; never heard anything, haven't seen anything exept their protestations that things the public is told aren't true.

    According to you they aren't willing to make a single adaptation to encourage their supporters; they would rather rely on hoping legislation is passed to allow them to operate in the face of the protests and, if that happens, pray that not a single bad thing is ever leaked out to the general public....not the best business model I have heard of, and their PR department sucks.


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  15. #715
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    So what are they doing to ensure that the average-joe-leaning-pro-slaughter person feels that they doing things humanely and feels justified in supporting them in the face of all the negative publicity, the stories of abuses, stories of bad inspectors who allow abuses to happen, etc.?

    Because I'm that Joe, and I got nothing; never heard anything, haven't seen anything exept their protestations that things the public is told aren't true.

    According to you they aren't willing to make a single adaptation to encourage their supporters; they would rather rely on hoping legislation is passed to allow them to operate in the face of the protests and, if that happens, pray that not a single bad thing is ever leaked out to the general public....not the best business model I have heard of, and their PR department sucks.
    According to me?
    I don't know, but here, the beef slaughter plants have high school and college classes coming thru at times, certain students with some projects also, newsmen regularly when a story touches what they do, etc.

    Remember, that is a working environment and they are producing food products, so have many regulations about how much they can let the general public do about walking in there.
    In some tours, everyone has to wear special protective equipment, etc.

    I don't know what they do for PR, but other than animal rights extremists in places like here, most anyone already knows how they operate, a business just like so many others and are not really concerned.



  16. #716
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    According to me?
    I don't know, but here, the beef slaughter plants have high school and college classes coming thru at times, certain students with some projects also, newsmen regularly when a story touches what they do, etc.

    Remember, that is a working environment and they are producing food products, so have many regulations about how much they can let the general public do about walking in there.
    In some tours, everyone has to wear special protective equipment, etc.

    I don't know what they do for PR, but other than animal rights extremists in places like here, most anyone already knows how they operate, a business just like so many others and are not really concerned.
    But we aren't talking about beef plants (who have done PR things to try to assure the average joe that they are as humane as possible), we are talking about animals a greater percentage of the population feels warm fuzzies about and is less comfortable about the idea of slaughtering them.

    And a proven impartial observor or two or even, god forbid, 5 or 6 is not the same as high school classes making their way through a plant (yes, was there in high school and have been since, and it wasn't a bid deal to put on the required equipment).
    Or, as suggested before, allow those observors to view the tapes on a regular basis; how is that going to effect the day-to-day business of running the plant? The only effect it should have on a well-run plant is a bit less worry about the possible bad publicity from the extremists.


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  17. #717
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    But we aren't talking about beef plants (who have done PR things to try to assure the average joe that they are as humane as possible), we are talking about animals a greater percentage of the population feels warm fuzzies about and is less comfortable about the idea of slaughtering them.

    And a proven impartial observor or two or even, god forbid, 5 or 6 is not the same as high school classes making their way through a plant (yes, was there in high school and have been since, and it wasn't a bid deal to put on the required equipment).
    Or, as suggested before, allow those observors to view the tapes on a regular basis; how is that going to effect the day-to-day business of running the plant? The only effect it should have on a well-run plant is a bit less worry about the possible bad publicity from the extremists.
    Agree Moon, And it is not a big deal. It is not a big deal for many work places.
    And since we are on the subject, someone, Bluey, Fairfax, Whomever
    The Videos, that have circulated forever, go to Youtube there are recent ones. Most seem to be real, some, I can see where they were altered, the ones from the 80s spring to mind. I have seen some that I did not feel were bad at all, And I have seen one that I pray to god is fake cause it still gives me the willies, Reminds me of some slasher horror flick.
    But the common response is business as usual, no those videos are not a good example of what goes on, Yet those videos fuel the ANTIS fire. And give a bad image to the slaughter houses, and I do not believe for one second that if new ones are to open here in the US and there is big money to be made they will not want repeats of Beltex and dallas crown. So lets hear again, why you keep saying No slaughter house will allow it? The cattle one sure did, cause it was bad press and people do not want to see the cattle stepped on and kicked.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.


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  18. #718
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    After visiting the Canadian SH's Temple Grandin had offered to be the third party with 24 hour feeds coming directly to her office/home.

    No-one took her up on her offer.

    But let's say the plants would now have someone capable of watching them anytime they wanted to. What about the auction, transport and feedlots.

    The USDA FOIA request pictures showed that the injured/dead horses arrived in those conditions at the plant. The USDA could not identify whether the horses were loaded with pre-existing injuries or sustained them during transport.
    Obviously the dead horses did die during transport.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"


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  19. #719
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    But we aren't talking about beef plants (who have done PR things to try to assure the average joe that they are as humane as possible), we are talking about animals a greater percentage of the population feels warm fuzzies about and is less comfortable about the idea of slaughtering them.

    And a proven impartial observor or two or even, god forbid, 5 or 6 is not the same as high school classes making their way through a plant (yes, was there in high school and have been since, and it wasn't a bid deal to put on the required equipment).
    Or, as suggested before, allow those observors to view the tapes on a regular basis; how is that going to effect the day-to-day business of running the plant? The only effect it should have on a well-run plant is a bit less worry about the possible bad publicity from the extremists.
    We don't have any horse slaughter plants here right now, have not had for years now.
    I have been assuming you were talking about current beef plants, when you were speaking of how they are operating.

    Of course we don't any of us know how any one horse plant may operate, that we will have to see, if any even gets to open.
    Any other is a mere wild guess.



  20. #720
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    Right, no sense beating a dead horse (couldn't resist!).
    The issue isn't changing the minds of the antis (never happen), it is informing and/or changing the minds of the general public who could be put at ease with the idea if they knew it was done humanely.

    The antis aren't the audience that needs addressed, it is the average person.
    yes. and that is the only reason why I still bother to participate in this musical chairs even without taking chairs out:
    shoot one argument out, we skip to the next, rinse repeat until we are back at the first one, slightly differently worded, maybe by another person.

    puking coat hangers comes to mind....
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.



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