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  1. #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSwan View Post
    Someone truly versed in conservation knows that there are all kinds of conservation programs that are not predicated upon the act of hunting; nor is their purpose to set aside land for hunting. Any kind of hunting at all.

    Just off the top of my head I can think of several:
    QMAP
    CREP
    BMP's
    Wetland mitigation
    Riparian buffers

    There are conservation programs one can enroll in through:
    USFW
    NRCS
    SWCD/USDA
    USGS
    NOAA
    EPA

    There are also state and federal programs that involve partnerships with NGO's and government, programs at the state level - the list is huge. None involve "canned" hunts.

    You're getting really paranoid. Who is Leo? WTF are you talking about?

    No - never mind. It seems some of you have got some sort of crazy drama going on somewhere else - leave me out of it. You people are nuts.
    However that is not what you said in your first post, and I quote,
    To this day most conservation efforts are funded in whole or in part either by sporting groups, or through taxes they imposed upon themselves through the Pittman-Robertson Act of 1937. Sportsmen invented the concept of conservation and ethics of wildlife management; those tenets are called the "Seven Sisters of Conservation" - the North American Wildlife Conservation Model. And that conservation also includes conservation of predators - including apex predators. Most wetland preservation in the US can be directly attributed to waterfowlers.
    I agree in the past sportsman were conservationists if only for themselves. Especially for waterfowl. Those entity's you listed do not have a direct agenda such as hunters.

    The laws they are passing left and right in my state is enough to make your head spin. From mining sulfide ore with limited accountability to ground water (we are talking Lake Superior aquifer) to hunting wolves with coon hounds and dog training on wolves in March.

    If you know anything about wolves you know the females are beginning to den and are heavily pregnant in March. So do you still think they want to conserve our only apex predator? They have already killed nearly a third of the population. They have not been a huge threat to farmers here there are so few. What they are a threat to is bear hunting dogs and now they will allow those very same dogs to hunt them. See illogical. Except that bear dogs carry a $2500 dollar price tag for depredation which will not be lifted even if they are used to hunt wolves.

    MT recently wrote into law no buffer zones for Yellowstones wolves. Wyoming can kill them on site any time year. S.Dakota has classified them a vermin even though they have no population. Not much science going on there. And Utah takes the cake, the Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife were recently given $300K of tax payer dollar exclusively for their anti wolf campaign.
    Last edited by sunridge1; Mar. 23, 2013 at 11:55 PM.



  2. #522
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    Greenville, MI,
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSwan View Post
    I don't think so. Not in my experience. It's a mishmash.

    Did you ever figure out that stitch?
    Not really.. did you?? LOL
    I had another one that was weird, and I kept at it and it still looked odd.
    I had better luck going to you tube and looking at Crochet instructional videos!
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #523
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    Jun. 19, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    What part of "vetted" observor was unclear?
    And if people can't be present to observe, fine, live-feed video will do.
    Want a solution that will keep the majority happy? You have to find a middle ground and compromise on some issues.
    That is what they have. The horses are on tape from the minute they enter the chute. Those tapes must also be available to government inspectors so it is not a case they can be altered or changed. They are also reviewed for staff training and efficiency.
    All of this has been explained but this anti group here on COTH only want to listen to urban legens and decade old information.

    No different than the Carriage horse in New York City problem ...



  4. #524
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    Oct. 18, 2000
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    Actually, those posts do not conflict

    You accused someone of having a canned hunt on their wildlife preserve; because that is what those are used for.

    That is false. There are a myriad of programs available to conserve wildlife and natural resources - the programs are all very complex but they are often funded through Pittman-Robertson tax money, at least in part. Or through tax credits or simply on the goodwill of the owner. QMAP is like that in that the program is voluntary, funded by sportsmen through game departments (license revenue and Pittman-Robertson tax revenue), and lots of volunteer hours and labor. Lots of it.

    I think what you are doing, judging by the information you are posting, is getting your information exclusively from animal rights groups. In fact, I can tell you are doing just that. And judging from how you respond to posts with better and unbiased information, you willfully refuse to consider any other source of information.

    If the goal was extirpation, the goal would be to eliminate the entire population. The goal is not extirpation; it is population control. You may disagree with that and if you do, you should become more informed and participate in the discourse. Wildlife is a public resource.

    But disagreeing with a particular wildlife management approach on one specific species in one small area of the country is no justification for trashing sportsmen; or willfully ignoring the tremendous contribution they have made, and continue to make, on the conservation and preservation of natural resources in the US.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #525
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    El Paso, TX
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    [QUOTE=MoonoverMississippi;6899739]
    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post

    And I disagree with that: if they want to quiet the "storm" they should allow "vetted" observors.
    I say "vetted" because there are those AR folks that would use an excuse to "get inside" and then use the carefully cut video to make things look very bad.
    We all know that has been done, but, as I said in my post, we can't rely on the past to make excuses for the present: that applies to both sides, therefore, they should make reasonable concessions to allay concerns.

    I personally disagree with the "Ag Gag" legislation. I understand the reasons: to prevent those heavily editted and cut-and-pasted films that present things incorrectly (we all know that happens) and the "make something happen and then tape it" films, but I would rather see them allow vetted observors.
    I think what Fairfax did was excellent, making time to observe the floor; if that was constantly allowed I think that would allay many concerns and provide a "fact check" on the doctored tapes.
    Well, here's an offer...
    I'll buy 2 Mare stare type cameras if Fairfax can get a horse SH in Canada to agree to install one for the stun box and one for the hanging rail, and get mgmt. to agree to allow them to film nonstop for 1 week without letting the employees know it's being filmed. And allow it to be viewed by those interested. If there is a less than 10% miss rate where horses need to be re-stunned and no major humane handling violations like a horse regaining consciousness when hung, 2 horses in stun box at once when one is killed, or using cattle prod on head of horse, then I'll donate 500.00 to any charity he likes, and publicly apologize for remarks about SH's.
    Last edited by jetsmom; Mar. 24, 2013 at 12:09 AM.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  6. #526
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    Mar. 23, 2010
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    665

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    I really just don't get this idea that if I am against horse slaughter, I must be a member or supporter of, or spy for, some radical organization. Stereotype much? I donate to my local SPCA and that is it. When I can, I donate to a local horse rescue that specializes in OTTBs. I have two horses. I ride them. I don't think riding horses is cruel. I have cats and dogs. I don't want to take anyone's cats or dogs or horses away.

    And I don't see a problem with a tax to fund a different solution. The livestock industry receives tons of subsidies paid for by the taxpayer. What's the difference? Everyone has to pay taxes for things they don't agree with. That's the way it works.

    And I really, really, find the condescending attitude of the some of the posters here towards people who have a different point of view nothing short of astounding. I was reading the thread on some KB that is offering horses for sale (prior to being shipped) and I was pretty well stunned by the instant paranoia and vitriol in response to the OP and another poster.

    I don't generally comment on, or read the slaughter threads, and now I know why.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  7. #527
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    El Paso, TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    That is what they have. The horses are on tape from the minute they enter the chute. Those tapes must also be available to government inspectors so it is not a case they can be altered or changed. They are also reviewed for staff training and efficiency.
    All of this has been explained but this anti group here on COTH only want to listen to urban legens and decade old information.

    No different than the Carriage horse in New York City problem ...
    You might need to let Temple Grandin know about the video, because fairly recently she was interviewed and stated that she would like to have 3rd party videotaping of all horse slaughterhouses, and she said that all of he horse slaughterhouses had refused to do so and that SOME of the other SH's (who were contracted with McDonalds for instance), used them.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  8. #528
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    Apr. 3, 2006
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    Spooner, WI
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSwan View Post
    Actually, those posts do not conflict

    You accused someone of having a canned hunt on their wildlife preserve; because that is what those are used for.

    That is false. There are a myriad of programs available to conserve wildlife and natural resources - the programs are all very complex but they are often funded through Pittman-Robertson tax money, at least in part. Or through tax credits or simply on the goodwill of the owner. QMAP is like that in that the program is voluntary, funded by sportsmen through game departments (license revenue and Pittman-Robertson tax revenue), and lots of volunteer hours and labor. Lots of it.

    I think what you are doing, judging by the information you are posting, is getting your information exclusively from animal rights groups. In fact, I can tell you are doing just that. And judging from how you respond to posts with better and unbiased information, you willfully refuse to consider any other source of information.

    If the goal was extirpation, the goal would be to eliminate the entire population. The goal is not extirpation; it is population control. You may disagree with that and if you do, you should become more informed and participate in the discourse. Wildlife is a public resource.

    But disagreeing with a particular wildlife management approach on one specific species in one small area of the country is no justification for trashing sportsmen; or willfully ignoring the tremendous contribution they have made, and continue to make, on the conservation and preservation of natural resources in the US.
    Your version of trashing and mine are apparently very different especially since my husband is a sportsman.

    This is not in just one small area of the country. My point is the public was not invited. It is my public land also, I pay taxes and I do actually use it, I ride. Hounds are used on public lands 7 months out of the year. No one bothered to consult/include the other tax paying citizens. The hunters do not own it, just like the ranchers do not own it.

    Why must you people call others names? Again, that classless thing comes to mind.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  9. #529
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    TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by newhorsemommy View Post
    I really just don't get this idea that if I am against horse slaughter, I must be a member or supporter of, or spy for, some radical organization. Stereotype much? I donate to my local SPCA and that is it. When I can, I donate to a local horse rescue that specializes in OTTBs. I have two horses. I ride them. I don't think riding horses is cruel. I have cats and dogs. I don't want to take anyone's cats or dogs or horses away.

    And I don't see a problem with a tax to fund a different solution. The livestock industry receives tons of subsidies paid for by the taxpayer. What's the difference? Everyone has to pay taxes for things they don't agree with. That's the way it works.

    And I really, really, find the condescending attitude of the some of the posters here towards people who have a different point of view nothing short of astounding. I was reading the thread on some KB that is offering horses for sale (prior to being shipped) and I was pretty well stunned by the instant paranoia and vitriol in response to the OP and another poster.

    I don't generally comment on, or read the slaughter threads, and now I know why.
    Maybe you would understand if you learn more about who the HSUS and such animal rights extremist groups are and what they are after and realize that certain posters are thinly veiled shilling for them:

    http://www.activistcash.com/organiza...united-states/

    This, to those of us that care for animals, here our horses, is very important.
    Animal rights groups ultimate goals are of eliminating all use of animals by humans.
    Slaughter is just one more of those, not important to them if it is humane or not, just that no one gets to use any animal, here for us important because that means our horses, in any way and attacking where they can get a toe hold, where some gullible ones listen to them and their myths and propaganda.

    As they used to say, before they were called on that by more rational people and it became not PC enough, "one generation and no more domestic animals and none too soon for me".



  10. #530
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    Jun. 30, 2006
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    SF Bay Area, California
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    Many of the horses that are bought for slaughter COULD be useful if given the opportunity.
    GREAT comment.

    I can already predict the argument the pro-slaughter would bring up? Who's going to buy those horses?

    If the horses were properly assessed as to training, health and personality, I bet a lot of people would purchase them, especially if the price was not inflated.
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg


    3 members found this post helpful.

  11. #531
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    Oct. 18, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    No one bothered to consult/include the other tax paying citizens.
    Why must you people call others names? Again, that classless thing comes to mind.
    Of course citizens are consulted. Wildlife management does not happen in a vacuum.

    What is more accurate is to say you did not participate when those consultations took place.

    The world is governed by the people who show up. (and in the case of wildlife management, science as well)
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    GREAT comment.

    I can already predict the argument the pro-slaughter would bring up? Who's going to buy those horses?

    If the horses were properly assessed as to training, health and personality, I bet a lot of people would purchase them, especially if the price was not inflated.
    But, but, that is what traders and trainers already do, have always done, sorted thru the horses and tried to resell those that can be used for other, of course!

    We even have one such thread right now, have you not noticed?

    Sadly, if you believe it or not, that by far is not enough of a market for all horses out there that don't fit any other we do with them, or when there are more horses than buyers, which happens regularly as the economy changes.



  13. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Maybe you would understand if you learn more about who the HSUS and such animal rights extremist groups are and what they are after and realize that certain posters are thinly veiled shilling for them:

    www.activistcash.com/hsus

    This, to those of us that care for animals, here our horses, is very important.
    Animal rights groups ultimate goals are of eliminating all use of animals by humans.
    Slaughter is just one more of those, not important to them if it is humane or not, just that no one gets to use any animal, here for us important because that means our horses, in any way and attacking where they can get a toe hold, where some gullible ones listen to them and their myths and propaganda.

    As they used to say, before they were called on that by more rational people and it became not PC enough, "one generation and no more domestic animals and none too soon for me".
    That site is more propaganda than any link to anti slaughter that I have ever seen posted on here. Richard Berman is a paid lobbyist for Big Ag, Alcohol and tobacco industry, among others. He personally takes 92 cents of every dollar donated to his charities...Far more than HSUS takes for salary.
    And your well worn quote is taken out of context, and was referring to heirloom cattle, which you know, but continue to ignore.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  14. #534
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    Nov. 18, 2010
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    california
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    4,703

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    Quote Originally Posted by newhorsemommy View Post
    I really just don't get this idea that if I am against horse slaughter, I must be a member or supporter of, or spy for, some radical organization. Stereotype much? I donate to my local SPCA and that is it. When I can, I donate to a local horse rescue that specializes in OTTBs. I have two horses. I ride them. I don't think riding horses is cruel. I have cats and dogs. I don't want to take anyone's cats or dogs or horses away.

    And I don't see a problem with a tax to fund a different solution. The livestock industry receives tons of subsidies paid for by the taxpayer. What's the difference? Everyone has to pay taxes for things they don't agree with. That's the way it works.

    And I really, really, find the condescending attitude of the some of the posters here towards people who have a different point of view nothing short of astounding. I was reading the thread on some KB that is offering horses for sale (prior to being shipped) and I was pretty well stunned by the instant paranoia and vitriol in response to the OP and another poster.

    I don't generally comment on, or read the slaughter threads, and now I know why.
    Yes, pro-slaughter and pro-carriage posters make sure to ridicule and disparage those who don't support their views. It is typical here.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  15. #535
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    TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    That site is more propaganda than any link to anti slaughter that I have ever seen posted on here. Richard Berman is a paid lobbyist for Big Ag, Alcohol and tobacco industry, among others. He personally takes 92 cents of every dollar donated to his charities...Far more than HSUS takes for salary.
    And your well worn quote is taken out of context, and was referring to heirloom cattle, which you know, but continue to ignore.
    Yep, can count on you dismissing what is not to your liking, ignoring that the site is about the truth you rather others didn't know about who those groups really are.
    Here is more, corroborating what that web site is stating, that you can't dismiss so easily:

    http://www.nathanwinograd.com/?p=6510

    That quote was published as part of an interview as you say, but he was using that long before that and since clearly as stated and the agenda is still the same, in a new suit to be more palatable to today's internet audience, that's all.



  16. #536
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSwan View Post
    Of course citizens are consulted. Wildlife management does not happen in a vacuum.

    What is more accurate is to say you did not participate when those consultations took place.

    The world is governed by the people who show up. (and in the case of wildlife management, science as well)
    You are dead wrong here my dear.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  17. #537
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSwan View Post
    Actually, those posts do not conflict

    You accused someone of having a canned hunt on their wildlife preserve; because that is what those are used for.

    That is false. There are a myriad of programs available to conserve wildlife and natural resources - the programs are all very complex but they are often funded through Pittman-Robertson tax money, at least in part. Or through tax credits or simply on the goodwill of the owner. QMAP is like that in that the program is voluntary, funded by sportsmen through game departments (license revenue and Pittman-Robertson tax revenue), and lots of volunteer hours and labor. Lots of it.

    I think what you are doing, judging by the information you are posting, is getting your information exclusively from animal rights groups. In fact, I can tell you are doing just that. And judging from how you respond to posts with better and unbiased information, you willfully refuse to consider any other source of information.

    If the goal was extirpation, the goal would be to eliminate the entire population. The goal is not extirpation; it is population control. You may disagree with that and if you do, you should become more informed and participate in the discourse. Wildlife is a public resource.

    But disagreeing with a particular wildlife management approach on one specific species in one small area of the country is no justification for trashing sportsmen; or willfully ignoring the tremendous contribution they have made, and continue to make, on the conservation and preservation of natural resources in the US.
    BTW I asked if the preserve was canned or otherwise. Gah! I am tiring of this constant correction. So you win. I'm a loser you're a winner. I cannot compete with your constant barrage of spin nor do I want to. I loathe dishonesty.

    Our country is so screwed.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  18. #538
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    TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    BTW I asked if the preserve was canned or otherwise. Gah! I am tiring of this constant correction. So you win. I'm a loser you're a winner. I cannot compete with your constant barrage of spin nor do I want to. I loathe dishonesty.

    Our country is so screwed.
    Not really, you accused me way before you asked anything.
    Short memory is not an excuse, sorry, can't change what was posted.
    Here it is again, your first rather odd comment about this, way off topic.
    Don't know where you got any crazy ideas about canned hunts?


    ---"---sunridge1: you even live in genuine wolf country to even have one iota of knowledge about what is going on in the wolf states? Except MN, thank goodness for MN. Are YOU active in anything other than your canned hunts?"---


    3 members found this post helpful.

  19. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    BTW I asked if the preserve was canned or otherwise. Gah! I am tiring of this constant correction. So you win. I'm a loser you're a winner. I cannot compete with your constant barrage of spin nor do I want to. I loathe dishonesty.[
    you do? go figure.

    Our country is so screwed.
    yes, please quit messing with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  20. #540
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    BTW I asked if the preserve was canned or otherwise. Gah! I am tiring of this constant correction. So you win. I'm a loser you're a winner. I cannot compete with your constant barrage of spin nor do I want to. I loathe dishonesty.

    Our country is so screwed.
    Oh Oh...I don't even have to travel over to the old TROT forum...shall I just bring a couple of posts from past threads on COTH to this current one...?



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