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  1. #361
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    That question is not the issue, Most horse owners do the responsible thing and either retire or euth.
    I have never sold a horse of mine, All have died while I owned them.
    I do not think the average sport horse person sends their horse to slaughter.
    No reason to. My opinion. Play nice people, the sand box is going to get dirty! Edited to add.. I have only owned 5 horses my whole life. I am 55.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    If you are looking for suggestions how to reduce the numbers of horses, there have been many. Whether or not anyone is willing to change "their own" horse husbandry is another story.

    Here's a pretty cool blog from someone who has put some thought into it:

    http://heatherclemenceau.wordpress.c...the-horses-go/

    “Strictly by definition there are over 100,000 “unwanted” horses who enter the processing end of the industry every year. There are no hard figures for how many others await something better, but the “sighted mouse” theory may apply; if you see one, there are undoubtedly far more hidden from view.

    Rescues turn away exponentially higher numbers of horses than they actually take in; SPCA offices strain their resources to depletion & beyond; and fewer & fewer private individuals are producing viable rescue alternatives, despite the rising head count. In other words; we’re trying harder & getting nowhere faster. It’s time to take a harder look at feasibility & be accountable for what we give.

    There are too many “unwanted” horses for us to reasonably expect to save all of them. The market is so saturated that this situation is not likely to improve for some time to come. Unscrupulous breeders & sales agents, uneducated buyers & a plethora of other influences will continue to sway the market until the product it offers improves. With 100,000+ horses annually heading to slaughter, the only way we can hope to get a handle on salvation is to elevate education & awareness, and to severely curtail foal crops in years to come.

    Prevailing economies are not likely to pass any time soon; so instead of expecting more money to rain from the heavens we must make more effective use of the
    resources we have at present, and expect those resources to shrink before they flourish once again. More importantly, we must work smarter; networking to improve availability of resources, focused fundraising that targets donations in kind in addition to cash, sponsorship programs for groups instead of individuals, & structuring of volunteer programs to maximize results from their efforts are but a few areas that need revising. The current rescue landscape must change; we can no longer willy-nilly “rescue” every horse we see. We must inject another dimension into the process; looking farther into the future. In essence, we must re-invent rescue, or else “salvation” will become semantically equal to “stockpiling”.

    Breeders, buyers, trainers, agents equine service providers, & government must now take the responsibility to assume the “bleeding edge” of control over this unacceptable situation. Responsibility (or lack thereof) is a major contributor to the issue; because not enough people took that stance and resultantly flooded the market with the horses we are now faced with rescuing or inevitably, slaughtering.

    I have a series of challenges for the equestrian community, and there are some tangible perks for those who pick up the gauntlet:
    rescues can't take the horses, because they have no money.
    they have no money, because the people who supported them have no money
    the people have no more money to support the horses they once had, thus offering them to rescues.



    • Veterinarians are in the soup along with the rest of us; you helped the vast majority of domesticated horses into this world, you can help us fix the problem now. I have repeatedly tried to launch gelding programs to prevent marginal stallions from entering breeding programs, & to offer free euthanasia for cash-strapped owners. These efforts have met with disdain from the medical community. You have education on your side, share it with the public, even if it means taking an unpopular stance. Many of you took an oath to actively work towards the greater good of the equestrian communities that support you; those words are knocking …
    a dwindling number of large animal vets with growing student loan dept...
    what do you propose?
    gelding clinics? fantastic. (aside from the fact that you are asking for them to put forth a significant monetary sacrifice)
    but in the end, the stallion owner is responsible.
    or do you suggest the vets perform geldings ninja style, sneaking into pastures, whacking off testies in the dead of night?
    You find them the money to fund the clinic, I am sure the answers would be more favorably.


    ~

    • Breeders are the most oft attacked for the current problem, but those with experience hesitate to share their knowledge. It’s not enough to hold onto a valued breeding philosophy; you need to explain to the masses why you breed the way you do, and take responsibility for your get. If you end up with a foal that fails to further the breed ideal, then do the right thing then & there instead of trying to recover your losses. You owe this & nothing less to the breed you purport to uphold.
    What?
    I have not met breeders who were not willing to share their knowledge
    If a foal does not fit the standard or program does not mean the animal can not have a productive life some place else.
    Yes, it would go down so well when a breeder states openly he/she culls little foals (doing the right thing means euthanizing, right?) because they are not perfect.
    Not to mention you can't really tell until they are grown, some major defects of course excluded from this rule
    ~

    • Trainers make money training horses, and to do so they must occasionally assume the role of agent, advisor & guide for their clients when the chequebooks come out. You want to be in a position of authority? Then act like you deserve it! If you see a horse that is incapable of meeting the clients’ needs, then be the professional we need you to be and pass that horse up rather than shovelling unheard of sums of money into your bank accounts only to watch the horse be shuffled off from one home you know damn well won’t work to another.
    well, if the industry does not kick them in the shins....
    You want to legislate morality....

    ~

    • During an era of prosperity, equine service providers flocked to the calls for everything from horse-sitting & equine chiropractic to haute couture grooming & dinner parties for stud services. Once the public was suitably fleeced and money drained out faster than gas through a luxury SUV, we were left holding the bag with the bill in it. Now that the barest necessities such as hay & shelter are scarcely affordable, the herd of “unaffordable” horses joins the ranks of the “unwanted”. Yes, some of the more gullible owners may have needed a swift kick in the bank account, but others were just trying to make a dream come true, or help a kid learn to ride, or maybe just make a home for a horse they could barely afford. Still think it was funny to charge $500 for a clipping … ?

    ~

    • Owners! Instead of discarding that horse because s/he cannot perform to your expectations or needs, look into retraining for alternate jobs. Look not to the breeder for a shiny new foal, but to the current get for matches to your quest. We recycle metal, glass, forest products & much more to save the planet; but make little effort to finding alternate productive service for the horses who serve us. Stewardship assumes many guises, and holds a multitude of responsibilities; not the least of which is that life you took on when you bought that horse …
    slaughter is recycle.
    but we have allowed for a climate to be created that makes it increasingly difficult to deal with a horse that does not fit the role it was to hold.
    Selling has it's pitfalls. You have to do nearly a full background check before you are allowed to let Dobbins go with the new owner.
    If you euthanize a horse that is still bright eyed, you are a monster.
    and if you can't afford to have a second horse, tough, Hon, you have to keep old horse and quit riding.
    neither solution is beneficial to the long term state of the industry.


    • Education must be the precursor to enforcement, so to those in the echelons of the enforcement community I pose this; if you are not in the position to educate, then you cannot morally enforce. Informed officers are your single best resource to stem the tsunami of neglect & abuse. Teach your officers how to spread the word, be seen as the source for information, be the “go to” for help instead of cringing under self-imposed Damoclean legerdemain. There are resources you can tap into, I can & have offered this and much more to many SPCA offices. Time to be all you can be.
    yes, education before punishment.
    but we have turned a tide in many places where the education has reached a matter of 'my way or else' or the standards have been raised to unobtainable levels.
    Again, who sets the curriculum? On what basis.

    ~

    • A tip o’ the hat to the American politicians who waded into battle for the sake of a few influential constituents & laboured long to rescind anti-slaughter legislation in their own states. When the highest power in the land said “No”, you conspired with other power brokers to create your own island of nepotism! Didn’t the KKK try something like that a while back … ? Apparently the wants of the few outweigh the needs of the many in the Land of the Free. Government is supposed to be of the people, for the people as I recall in my history classes; or perhaps that was re-written along with the outcome of the War of 1812?
    What?

    ~
    • If we can’t viably save a horse, then the only moral thing to do is to release him/her from further suffering. Vets, breeders, trainers & owners alike must all accept the very real possibility of having to euthanize a horse if their prospect of adoption or homing is less than ideal. We can’t save them all, so let’s concentrate on the ones we can look after; but in order to do that we must educate ourselves in making intelligent choices, and be ready to release the rest so as to prevent them from a life of depravity & neglect. Is “life without possibility of parole” better or worse than “death row”?

    No one is innocent in this situation; you are either part of the solution or you reside squarely in the realm of the problem; by allowing the problem to persist you procreate it through inaction. Those who care can only outnumber those who do not because they prove their devotion by working actively towards the solutions. Those who profess to care yet do nothing are little more than agents of the ones who care not.
    this is probably the only statement we all agree on.
    and after the initial nod we get back to the nitty-gritty: what standard?

    I don’t believe anything constructive comes from posing a problem without offering solutions to it, so here are my attempts at blazing a trail out of the mess:
    I salute the effort

    • I am not a fan of regulation, but one look at the flood of foals every year proves we cannot be trusted to police our own ranks so some form of continuity must be enforced upon us. I propose licensing for breeders, and a qualification process to prove fitness. Fees should include a levy that goes directly into a fund administrated for the benefit of rescues & animal welfare.
    who gets to set the standards?
    ~

    • Breed associations could provide a point system based on breeders’ past crops & performance. Potential buyers could purchase compilations of breeding activity & shortlist based on a breeder’s rating. The higher the quality of foals, the more points a breeders gets. The better their earnings, the more points they get. Breeders should also receive substantial recognition for responsibility towards recovering or recycling horses who may not make the grade and are retrained or otherwise assisted at the breeder’s own expense. In short, good breeders would benefit exponentially, poor breeders would no longer be able to finance the equine equivalent of “puppy mills”.
    One problem: The majority of breeders cannot provide you with this kind of data to make it statistically significant.
    Because most don't have but one or two mares.
    Not to mention that the genetic roulette is not in their favor. Ever.
    it's a law of nature that your crop will be on average split 25/50/25 in terms of quality. That does not mean that the lower 25 percent will be by default Alpo material, but for your purpose for the loss column
    In the end, only the big breeders can comply with this requirement. you know, the foal millers....the rest will be regulated out of existence.



    • Breeders should be required to post a performance bond on their foal crops. Failure to ensure welfare of their get would bring about enforced support, be it in the form of care or euthanasia.
    I am reading this as money the breeder has to shell out?
    I have not checked prices lately, but at a tag of between 5 and 10k in cost alone from the idea to the finished product (foal on ground) plus the added care and training for another 3 to 4 years....added cost will do only one thing: eliminate breeders
    which in turn will eliminate horses.
    and the need for this discussion.

    • Trainers cannot morally represent their clients in the purchase of new horses. They can advise but ultimately it’s up to the owners to educate themselves when looking at a horse. If you have to ask a barber if you need a haircut, maybe you need to look in the mirror instead. Immerse yourselves in the transaction; make an informed decision based on all available information. Your vet, farrier, chiro, trainer or miracle-working cowboy cannot “fix” a horse that is conformationally unfit, unsound or otherwise debilitated. Buy what you need, buy smart!
    what is your point?
    people want what they want. And if they are competent to consent to contracts they can get it. If they need it or should have it or if it is bad for them. How do you want to police that?


    • Major players must be made accountable for the demands they put on the industry & provide alternatives, such as supporting adoption foundations for these ex-athletes. The racing community places 2-year old horses into competitive service, but then provides little or no support for the burnt out 4-year olds that practice creates.
    true, a symptomatic problem. however, since the 'major player' who produce don't often own the stock....what do you suggest?
    not to mention that race registered stock does not account for a great number in horses that do end up at slaughter. The industry already has a great support system for the track dropouts.

    • Major venues & breed/discipline associations should donate a percentage of their income to welfare & support. This doesn’t mean you get to raise the rates for next year’s shows or memberships, take the money out of your own pocket; like the rest of us do …
    we call that taxes....

    Does this anger you? Do my words inspire ire & rage? Good! Then you’re just the person we need, for you have passion & passion is what is needed to chip through the crust of apathy. Edmund Burke said “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing.”
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  3. #363
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    I know. As a horsewoman I already have and will continue hold myself responsible and accountable for my small part in the big world of the horse industry. Too bad that others are not willing to do the same.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    So educate me. What extra taxes does a slaughter plant pay that any other business on the same commercial property would not pay?

    As for the Veterans Department...I would think those veterans paid their dues with the lives, their bodies and their minds. We have an obligation to them, as a country, to make them as whole as we can.
    Okay Laura...Now I have demands ALL vetrans must take a forever horse or we cut all of their benefits off. All or nothing.. That is your solution to slaughter so lets carry the tradition to everything else.

    All of this over a fight about what to do with a horse AFTER IT IS DEAD....

    Maybe slaughter can be...you lead a horse up and they chute...I mean shoot it in the head. With bullets...

    All we can do is fight against the HSUS and anti meat A/r groups. They NEVER want to spend THEIR OWN "M"ON"EY..but they sure want to spend ours. In Canada Liberals always want a Nanny State. Thank goodness
    we have a LEADER who believes in free enterprise



  5. #365
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    Fairfax, you said that slaughter plants paid for their inspectors through their taxes. That's one inexpensive USDA inspector at $5/year.

    Where's your info on Kaufman raising taxes due to the plant closing coming from...links?

    Must almost every post you make include nasty, demeaning names towards those you don't agree with? In addition, many of us don't find your cutsie remarks about our veterans funny, by the way. I also don't believe that giving horses to veterans was my idea.

    Further, I don't believe that anyone is arguing about what to do with a horse when it's dead. I believe the disagreement is on the manner, place and execution of its death.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Fairfax, you said that slaughter plants paid for their inspectors through their taxes. That's one inexpensive USDA inspector at $5/year.

    Where's your info on Kaufman raising taxes due to the plant closing coming from...links?

    Must almost every post you make include nasty, demeaning names towards those you don't agree with?
    please quote and highlight the mean thing he said in that post. because I missed it, and I want to be outraged....


    As to the taxes...oh my, yes, the 5 dollar tax return...

    there are local taxes, federal taxes pay roll taxes. deductions (as in money spend other wise that qualifies for a tax break)

    mean slaughter plant used all means legally available to not pay more taxes than needed.

    Oh, BTW....big oil companies, after years of receiving record profits, also profited nicely from nearly no taxes paid PLUS received also considerable subsidies, all while fleecing us at the pumps
    (fuel and energy would be another source of tax revenue the plants would have paid in Dallas)


    then there are the taxes the employees pay as they spend their ill gotten gains. Mostly locally, in the county, on groceries, other goods, housing...

    and of course there id federal money the county can receive for having businesses, to fix roads etc...


    Oh...communities often WAVE taxes to lure new businesses into the communities. Because the benefits are much higher than the initial cost of the few tax dollars....
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    If they're dead they're not renewable. Each year about 40% of the food in the U.S. goes uneaten...I would think a rational person would be more worried about that waste than 100,000 horses sold for slaughter.

    Let's see, at $.20 per pound, average 1,000 lb horse, that's about $20,000,000. In comparison, we waste about $165 billion (that's billion with a B) in food. Why not focus on that waste? $165 billion is a lot of natural, renewable resource to go to waste. But that's really not what this is all about, is it?
    That there is waste in some systems doesn't mean we have to have unnecessary waste in others.
    Just because we are still rich in the USA doesn't mean we have to cavalierly waste what we don't need, here horse meat.

    You really don't know what a natural, renewable resource is, by definition?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_resource

    Yes, horses do fit the description, to a T, especially considering that they are a domesticated species, the ultimate definition of natural and renewable.



  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    please quote and highlight the mean thing he said in that post. because I missed it, and I want to be outraged....


    As to the taxes...oh my, yes, the 5 dollar tax return...

    there are local taxes, federal taxes pay roll taxes. deductions (as in money spend other wise that qualifies for a tax break)

    mean slaughter plant used all means legally available to not pay more taxes than needed.

    Oh, BTW....big oil companies, after years of receiving record profits, also profited nicely from nearly no taxes paid PLUS received also considerable subsidies, all while fleecing us at the pumps
    (fuel and energy would be another source of tax revenue the plants would have paid in Dallas)


    then there are the taxes the employees pay as they spend their ill gotten gains. Mostly locally, in the county, on groceries, other goods, housing...

    and of course there id federal money the county can receive for having businesses, to fix roads etc...


    Oh...communities often WAVE taxes to lure new businesses into the communities. Because the benefits are much higher than the initial cost of the few tax dollars....
    Wait until they start asking you if you would put your horse in a slaughter truck, meaning that evidently, in their eyes, that would brand you as an ogre that would eat their young and have puppies for breakfast too, as per their strange ideology and misunderstanding of what the whole slaughter process and it's debates is all about.



  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Wait until they start asking you if you would put your horse in a slaughter truck, meaning that evidently, in their eyes, that would brand you as an ogre that would eat their young and have puppies for breakfast too, as per their strange ideology and misunderstanding of what the whole slaughter process and it's debates is all about.
    Oh, like last year, the year before that, and the one before?

    Not to mention, I am from Germany, where they eat horse!

    I think I have been told I kick puppies and drown kittens, too, but I must have misunderstood that....as I was busy being recruited by the Slaughterettes...

    and two weeks ago somebody suggested my legs were to round, called me some sort of vehicle....might have been a fat joke, not sure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    That there is waste in some systems doesn't mean we have to have unnecessary waste in others.
    Just because we are still rich in the USA doesn't mean we have to cavalierly waste what we don't need, here horse meat.

    You really don't know what a natural, renewable resource is, by definition?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_resource

    Yes, horses do fit the description, to a T, especially considering that they are a domesticated species, the ultimate definition of natural and renewable.
    No that be you, not understanding. A picture of a geothermal plant ain't it.



  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Wait until they start asking you if you would put your horse in a slaughter truck, meaning that evidently, in their eyes, that would brand you as an ogre that would eat their young and have puppies for breakfast too, as per their strange ideology and misunderstanding of what the whole slaughter process and it's debates is all about.
    No one would ask her that, since she doesn't own one.

    It's a valid question that you still haven't answered. And we're talking about now...not when you were living overseas, and they may have had local abattoirs.


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  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    No that be you, not understanding. A picture of a refinery ain't it.
    refinery?



    Good God....mercy me.

    A power plant in ICELAND is probably not running on fossilized fuels, since they tap into the - renewable - energy their volcanic island offers.

    Public education at work?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    No one would ask her that, since she doesn't own one.

    It's a valid question that you still haven't answered.
    Not really, have answered time and again, but seems that some lack basic comprehension of what is being stated.
    Not surprising they fall for animal rights myths and propaganda so easily, pre-digested ideas ready for consumption by the gullible.

    Every time we get an "action alert" from animal rights groups, as this story here, certain posters hurry here with that information, not realizing that gives them away as what that makes them, animal rights extremists and their followers.



  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    refinery?



    Good God....mercy me.

    A power plant in ICELAND is probably not running on fossilized fuels, since they tap into the - renewable - energy their volcanic island offers.

    Public education at work?
    I've apologized for the nasty comments and not playing nicely...maybe you should give it a try.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    1 members found this post helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Not really, have answered time and again, but seems that some lack basic comprehension of what is being stated.
    Not surprising they fall for animal rights myths and propaganda so easily, pre-digested ideas ready for consumption by the gullible.

    Every time we get an "action alert" from animal rights groups, as this story here, certain posters hurry here with that information, not realizing that gives them away as what that makes them, animal rights extremists and their followers.
    Bluey, I sincerely doubt that most of us on COTH are animal rights extremists...there might be a handful. That's it.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Wait until they start asking you if you would put your horse in a slaughter truck, meaning that evidently, in their eyes, that would brand you as an ogre that would eat their young and have puppies for breakfast too, as per their strange ideology and misunderstanding of what the whole slaughter process and it's debates is all about.
    No, actually I was wondering if it's all bluff and bluster on your part. If you truly believe that horses are a renewable resource and should be used one more time, then why not admit it if you would send your horse to slaughter?
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Bluey, I sincerely doubt that most of us on COTH are animal rights extremists...there might be a handful. That's it.
    I didn't say "most".



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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    No, actually I was wondering if it's all bluff and bluster on your part. If you truly believe that horses are a renewable resource and should be used one more time, then why not admit it if you would send your horse to slaughter?

    That is not what you asked, but if I would put a horse in a truck.
    Can't change your story so easily.



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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Bluey, I sincerely doubt that most of us on COTH are animal rights extremists...there might be a handful. That's it.
    She knows that, but it's easier to call someone names, rather than debate a point.


    3 members found this post helpful.

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    I am perfectly okay with euthanasia via well placed gunshot. I am perfectly okay with eating horsemeat. I am perfectly okay with my cats/dogs eating horsemeat. (Assuming, of course, the meat is actually free from drugs.)

    However, I also think that anytime a large business has to choose between profit and doing the right thing, profit will inevitably win out. (In the case of horse slaughter, I would personally define "the right thing" as always providing humane, respectful transport and slaughter.) Because of this, I cannot support horse slaughter as it is currently available. If there were small, local places that could do the job, I would absolutely support them.

    For the record, I do eat meat and I do get it from small, local places I can trust. Interestingly, everyone I personally know who does not support horse slaughter refuses to support it for the same reasons - not trusting that large companies are always humane and not being able to be sure that there are no drugs in the meat. Not a single person I know is refusing to support horse slaughter just because it's horses getting slaughtered, but that is a statement/accusation that seems to come up a lot. I know 'the plural of anecdote is not data', but it is interesting.


    4 members found this post helpful.

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