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  1. #21
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    Jul. 10, 2008
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    NC
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    Quote Originally Posted by ideayoda View Post
    Is this use of a snaffle (L/R actions on the bars of the mouth to create a closed /low posture) what we want to teach the horse? That is not the traditional purpose of/reaction to a snaffle. The problem with using tools to simulate a given balance, is that the horse learns incorrect reactions which look good enough to fool some eyes...but what are they training the horse to do? Assume a look, rarely more.
    When I always used it, it was with the mildest bit possible (in my cases a loose-ring happy mouth), and the rope that went through the bit was positioned at the top most ring of the surcingle, similar to where the rider's hands would be. This never created any of my horses to have a "low posture." No horse ever seems to fight it, and the pressure didn't seem to be on the bars of their mouth when you put it at the top. The one horse I used it on that did the jumpers I felt had improved balance after using this when compared to before.

    ETA---it wasn't used religiously, but rather whenever it seemed necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post

    We didn't get into the specifics and I havent' seen a demo, but his explanation was that he felt it helped a horse learn the proper positioning and get fit without worrying about the balance of a rider.

    I think most green horses or a horse that isn't fully fit will benefit from any sort of ground work that fits them up AND teaches prior to being ridden.

    It's true that a really accomplished & balanced rider can help the horse, but I would venture to guess there are less of these riders out there than not.
    This has always been my understanding.
    Quote Originally Posted by rustbreeches View Post
    [George Morris] doesn't always drink beer, but when he does, he prefers Dos Equis



  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec. 16, 2011
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    178

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    Our trainers use it from time to time



  3. #23
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    Jun. 13, 2001
    Location
    usa
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    6,135

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    Even if it set high, the actions of the hindlegs make the actions l/r. Even if the horse is properly up/open this is a sawing action (in trot...but strange in canter where the outside hindleg would be counter bending the horse) (simulating the hand would be doing this...which it should NOT do every step).
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  4. #24
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    Jul. 10, 2008
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    NC
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    Quote Originally Posted by ideayoda View Post
    Even if it set high, the actions of the hindlegs make the actions l/r. Even if the horse is properly up/open this is a sawing action (in trot...but strange in canter where the outside hindleg would be counter bending the horse) (simulating the hand would be doing this...which it should NOT do every step).
    Huh?? Everything slides through rings when the horse is in motion, so I don't understand how the outside hind leg would have any affect on the bend of the neck.

    I think maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say. When you watch a horse being lunged in this "system," they are not counter-bent at all, and you can tell by looking at the bit that there's not "sawing" action going on in the mouth. If anything, they look slightly bent to the inside but otherwise rather straight. Maybe you can clarify? Have you used it?
    Quote Originally Posted by rustbreeches View Post
    [George Morris] doesn't always drink beer, but when he does, he prefers Dos Equis



  5. #25
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    Jul. 17, 2012
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    Ok folks! I didn't want to create an arguement though I realize there are purists out there that would have opinions.

    My goal with the tool is not to "teach" the horse anything. At times I do not have a lot of time to ride and will lunge my horses. The particular horse that I have in mind is built very straight through her shoulder and is set high in her neck so when simply lunging her she will moves around in a completely non-beneficial manor. When riding her she is soft, supple, and responsive. I just wanted something that will help guide her. Not force or create a frame but will allow for a groundwork session that would be more similar to a ride.



  6. #26
    Join Date
    Mar. 20, 2013
    Location
    Citra, Florida
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    5

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    They can be effective when properly fitted and used in a round pen with out a line attached. People do more damage yanking on the end of the line with out any gadgets at all. It is not the tool, it is how the tool is used. You can make one yourself, it is simple. At the barn I work at we make our own all of the time but what do a bunch of olympians know???



  7. #27
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    May. 24, 2011
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    Every "gadget" has a right and wrong way to use it. Used correctly, they can be a useful tool for fine-tuning something that is already being done correctly, or it can function as a bridge to help horse or rider learn a new concept. Used incorrectly, even a loose-ring french snaffle is harsh/fails to accomplish objectives in a productive manner.
    Last edited by MyssMyst; Mar. 20, 2013 at 08:31 PM.



  8. #28
    Join Date
    Nov. 10, 2011
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    900

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    OP, When my mare was at my trainer's farm they would put my mare in this for MAYBE 15 minutes if I couldn't get out. I was very pleased with how it helped my mare in her hind end. She felt so much stronger in her canter work. I do not feel like it made any difference in how my mare carried her head/ neck. And it did not ravage my ver sensitive horse's mouth.

    I can understand IDEAyoda's point about the butt strap connecting to the mouth, and when I would watch my mare go in the rig I could see the slightest 'tug' on the bars of her mouth. Tug isn't the right word. My mare didn't seem to notice and this is a mare that goes in a nathe. If it is set to tight, sure you can ruin your horse's mouth. But I have seen plenty of people ruin their horse's mouth au naturale.



  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jan. 9, 2010
    Location
    Milton, FL
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    517

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    I am also interested in the Pessoa system. I currently don't have a trainer (we just moved to West Florida in Decmeber) and I am an out of shape ammie. My mare is regularly lunged in side reins (even before we ride), so I think she would be fine with the presumed "sawing," no matter how minimal the bit pressure would be.

    My mare is a 14 year old OTTB that spent quite a few years being an oven and nothing more. I have a VERY hard time getting her to engage her hind end and round her back. Sadly, I'm realizing that she is getting more and more sway-backed. I don't really have the skill set to really do this under saddle and I worry that I am doing more harm than good. I would like to preserve her back as long as possible, she is only 14 after all.

    My husband is dead-set against all "gimmicks." He is old school classic dressage and thinks everything can be solved with hours in the saddle. Maybe it can, but I also don't have the luxury of "hours in the saddle." Husband and human children wanting food and clean clothes and all that nonsense.

    Much like many posters on here, I am not deluded into thinking we are hitting GP... well... ever... I don't want either of us looking like broken-down, used-to-be broodmares. Both of us being comfortable and happy is the goal.

    Is this the "gimmick" (kidding kidding!) for us?
    Steppin Not Dragon "Bella"
    Top Shelf "Charlie"
    Check out the Military + Horses fb page!



  10. #30
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    Jul. 10, 2001
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    12th floor of the Acme building in a city that knows how to keep it's secrets.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GAGirl View Post
    That is what I am looking to do. I want to use it for the nights I don't have time to ride. I have a young horse that needs some guidance still in order to really use herself. Not a big fan of gimmicks myself. I just have a hard time with how much a few snaps and some rope cost.... Like I said, with the measurements it looks like I could make one myself
    I failed at making one myself and all those little pulleys are more expensive than you think. I copied a Pessoa. I ended up with this and couldn't tell the difference.

    http://www.sstack.com/Western_Traini...aining-System/
    *****
    You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.



  11. #31
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    Jul. 17, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midge View Post
    I failed at making one myself and all those little pulleys are more expensive than you think. I copied a Pessoa. I ended up with this and couldn't tell the difference.

    http://www.sstack.com/Western_Traini...aining-System/
    That price is definitely more realistic



  12. #32
    Join Date
    Oct. 22, 2009
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    2,964

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    Quote Originally Posted by Midge View Post
    I failed at making one myself and all those little pulleys are more expensive than you think. I copied a Pessoa. I ended up with this and couldn't tell the difference.

    http://www.sstack.com/Western_Traini...aining-System/
    My trainer also uses this knock off, I can't tell the difference between the 'real' one and the schneiders.
    .



  13. #33
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    Jul. 10, 2008
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    NC
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    Schneiders is awesome! That one looks the same as the Pessoa one to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by rustbreeches View Post
    [George Morris] doesn't always drink beer, but when he does, he prefers Dos Equis



  14. #34
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    Jul. 17, 2012
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    Looks like I have found a cheaper alternative
    Thanks Ladies!



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