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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul. 17, 2012
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    55

    Default Pessoa Training System

    Does anyone use this for lunging your horses?
    I want the good the bad and the ugly.

    Also If you do use it, did you pruchase or make yours? Looking at them online they look like they would be fairly easy to make and cost a lot less then $200, or am I missing something there?

    Thanks!



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2008
    Location
    The beautiful midwest
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    715

    Default

    I've seen the trainers use them at my barn. I'll try to get some info if they like them. I've never been in to the gimmicks myself.
    Lilykoi


    Hell hath no fury like the chestnut thoroughbred mare



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr. 26, 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
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    I have one, ehmm two actually ;-) One for my 2 bigger horses and one for my smaller horse. That way they have a fitting set and I don't have to change it all the time if I use it on the other horse.

    I love it, it is a very good way to excercise your horse and make him use his body and activate his hindlegs at the same time.

    It is important not to set it up tooo tight, the horse needs to have space and needs to be able to sort of relax instead of being "pinned" and "forced" and "kept" in(to) a certain frame. The fun thing is, the pessoa helps them find the right frame and love it there. So no forcing or keeping, but finding and enjoying the right frame.. I purchased it, one second hand on the internet the other in a shop. $200,- is a lot of money by the way. You don't pay that kind of money here in the Netherlands I must say..
    Offspring of Ramiro Z clique,member TrakehNERD Clique Very proud and honored to be the human of Fargo (RIP) and Whizzard. Whizz what a true friend you are.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul. 17, 2012
    Posts
    55

    Default

    That is what I am looking to do. I want to use it for the nights I don't have time to ride. I have a young horse that needs some guidance still in order to really use herself. Not a big fan of gimmicks myself. I just have a hard time with how much a few snaps and some rope cost.... Like I said, with the measurements it looks like I could make one myself



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul. 28, 2004
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,864

    Default

    Exactly what fargo said. NOT tight. I use mine very loosely and the older guys know what to do. They relax right into it, and all I have to do is stand there in the middle. I use mine in a round pen (no lunge line) and I got a bitless caveson that I use instead of a bit in their mouth. Their noses are out a little, and definitely not cranked in.

    Great way to keep them in shape without the weight and inbalances of a rider. I do 30 minutes MAX and am very careful to work them up to that even. Lots of walking and some backing too. Not too much canter.

    I would only use it on very broke (mature) horses who understand the bridle. Definitely not on the young ones or one that worries about it. Sometimes it takes some patience to let them teach themselves where is comfortable in it, but when they do it will be in the right place. I never ever chase them in it. They can go as slow as they want until they are properly relaxed.

    Personally, I use it more for a muscle building device for the back than as a device for teaching the bridle.
    friend of bar.ka



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep. 16, 2000
    Location
    Memphis, TN
    Posts
    48

    Default

    This website has a great description of why I dislike the Pessoa system (and draw reins)!

    http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/gadgets.php
    "You can shout curses, but you can't cry."-Joe Fargis



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr. 26, 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
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    1,125

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brigadier View Post
    This website has a great description of why I dislike the Pessoa system (and draw reins)!

    http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/gadgets.php
    That IS funny, the pessoa in all 3 pictures in this document is toooo tight. And that is not how it was meant. There is no pulling in the mouth whatsoever if the lengths of the pessoa are set correctly. And then it is a very honest and easy tool and horses "get" the principle fairly quickly even youngsters.
    Offspring of Ramiro Z clique,member TrakehNERD Clique Very proud and honored to be the human of Fargo (RIP) and Whizzard. Whizz what a true friend you are.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr. 26, 2004
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    The Netherlands
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    Default

    Double post
    Offspring of Ramiro Z clique,member TrakehNERD Clique Very proud and honored to be the human of Fargo (RIP) and Whizzard. Whizz what a true friend you are.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul. 17, 2012
    Posts
    55

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brigadier View Post
    This website has a great description of why I dislike the Pessoa system (and draw reins)!

    http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/gadgets.php
    The lady that writes this is known to be very "opinionated and sensationalistic"...
    Any tool can be used wrong in bad hands...


    3 members found this post helpful.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr. 26, 2004
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    The Netherlands
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    That is right any tool or any bit can be used wrong in bad hands. I don't know if I would make it myself though, not if I didn't have an original to copy ;-)
    Offspring of Ramiro Z clique,member TrakehNERD Clique Very proud and honored to be the human of Fargo (RIP) and Whizzard. Whizz what a true friend you are.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun. 13, 2001
    Location
    usa
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    6,055

    Default

    When the P system 'works' (loose/tight/whatever) the movement of the hindlegs tugs alternatingly on the mouth (aka the sensitive bars) giving the horse alternating tugs left and right (in trot). It is more likely to create false roundness than proper use of the hindlegs (and there are western peeps that put hock hobbles on and do the same thing....grr). The sustainable dressage site is right on.

    The principle the horse should be getting is that when a rider half halts that they are more up and open and proper folding ALL the hindleg joints.
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  12. #12
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    Sep. 16, 2000
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    Memphis, TN
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    Quote Originally Posted by GAGirl View Post
    The lady that writes this is known to be very "opinionated and sensationalistic"...
    Any tool can be used wrong in bad hands...
    Too true. I just happen to agree with her description of the Pessoa System.
    "You can shout curses, but you can't cry."-Joe Fargis



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr. 26, 2004
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    The Netherlands
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    The hind piece, is connected through side ropes and the side ropes run through a catrol (don't knop proper word) and with a clip it is clipped to the bit. The rope runs through the catrol and isn't directly on the bit. The catrol takes care that the rope doesn't jam so the rope is flowing all the time. Only when the ropes are too short or too thight the rope isn't flowing or rolling through and then there could be jamming or tossing of the bit, but that is NOT the case when the ropes are correctly set and the catrol is doing it's job
    http://www.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=h...4Q9QEwAA&dur=0
    Offspring of Ramiro Z clique,member TrakehNERD Clique Very proud and honored to be the human of Fargo (RIP) and Whizzard. Whizz what a true friend you are.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr. 26, 2004
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    The Netherlands
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    Offspring of Ramiro Z clique,member TrakehNERD Clique Very proud and honored to be the human of Fargo (RIP) and Whizzard. Whizz what a true friend you are.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep. 19, 2006
    Posts
    85

    Default

    I have used the system on all different kinds of horses of all different training levels.

    I would agree with some of the other posters in that it works best with horses that are broke to the bridle. It can reinforce there education and build muscle at the same time.

    It is best used on horses that know how to lunge - can walk, trot, canter, halt and do transitions among gates.

    It can be helpful with horses that avoid contact by disengaging their hind end and putting all of their weight on their front end/rider's hands. It can also be quite shocking to a horse like this (picture rearing.....) so I would be careful about slapping it on any horse as a remedy for an ongoing training issue.

    I have seen it not work on horses that curl behind contact, have underlying soundness issues that prevent them from taking proper contact (for obvious reasons) and are overly sensitive to restraint/confinement/correction via "gadgets".

    When I initially started using it I was able to find an article somewhere (this was 8+ years ago) about how to use it - I have never been able to find another article since. The article indicated that whatever you do in the Pessoa is like riding them for 2x the amount (i.e. 30 minutes of lunging straight is like an hour of non stop riding). The article recommended building up the workload very slowly - almost like a rehab program from a short term layup. Cantering is very difficult and can take weeks to accomplish correctly and to any benefit for the horse. If you canter before they establish the muscle and balance to carry themselves as the Pessoa tells them to - not good....

    There are also different levels that you can position the head based upon where you connect the lines to the surcingle. The article indicated you should always start and finish on the lowest setting for a warm up and cool down.

    In the months that I used the Pessoa on a regular basis, the slow progressive program of walking, trotting, transitions and then cantering provided the best result.

    Anyone I saw that pulled a horse out and cantered in for 20 minutes in the Pessoa regretted it the next day as it can make a horse very very body sore if they are not accustomed to it - as any kind of work can.

    Regarding the pullies and hitting the horse in the mouth with the snaps/"but strap" - when the Pessoa is new - the ropes and pullies slide very nicely. If you take care of the ropes and pullies, it slides and provides a give/take - release to the horse when they are correct.

    If you do not take care of the ropes and pullies - allow them to get dirty, etc - they can stop sliding, the pullies are not so durable (or weren't 8 years ago) and the ropes can fray/break. I had to replace a rope on one Pessoa once - not fun - but the replacement rope was actually much better weight/durability/sliding than the original.

    A good tool in the right hands - as others have said. It does not work on my current horse - at all - who was originally broke to curl behind the bit and avoid contact.
    Last edited by kafesoap; Mar. 20, 2013 at 12:52 PM. Reason: Additional info


    3 members found this post helpful.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul. 10, 2008
    Location
    NC
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    886

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    I think it's great for a horse that needs to build up their top line or a horse that needs work using their back end that is already well schooled on the flat. I think their are even "knock offs" that are cheaper and work in exactly the same way.

    ETA--I used it a long time ago on a couple of horses--one who was in heavy showing who needed to keep in shape for the jumpers, and another who we purchased who had time off and needed to get more topline/hind muscle before being put into more work.
    Quote Originally Posted by rustbreeches View Post
    [George Morris] doesn't always drink beer, but when he does, he prefers Dos Equis



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun. 13, 2001
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    usa
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    6,055

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    IF one just 'wanted the hindlegs' then use a surcingle w/o a connection to the mouth (a butt rope). The fact is that as the hindleg go back with a passoa they DO pull the mouth on that side (even loosely set).

    As far as the sustainable site being sensational, it is merely showing what happens biomechanically with applications of different balances and with different types of equipment. But the base question is always: why does a rider have need of xyz to solicite a behavioral response in a horse which can be gotten much more simply/traditionally?
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  18. #18
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    Jun. 11, 2004
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    Still here ~ not yet there
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    Interesting that this post should come up now. A horse trainer friend of mine (who actually started in western and Buck Brannaman, then somehow ended up in the dressage world) was telling me just yesterday that he uses this tool.

    We didn't get into the specifics and I havent' seen a demo, but his explanation was that he felt it helped a horse learn the proper positioning and get fit without worrying about the balance of a rider.

    I think most green horses or a horse that isn't fully fit will benefit from any sort of ground work that fits them up AND teaches prior to being ridden.

    It's true that a really accomplished & balanced rider can help the horse, but I would venture to guess there are less of these riders out there than not. Of course, like any tool, it's only as good and effective as the person using it, and I would think detailed instructions would be included.

    Are they? Or do they just send you a big box of rope and pulleys?

    As for "gimmicks"...when is a "gimmick" not a tool? Pretty thin line I would guess...



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun. 13, 2001
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    usa
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    Is this use of a snaffle (L/R actions on the bars of the mouth to create a closed /low posture) what we want to teach the horse? That is not the traditional purpose of/reaction to a snaffle. The problem with using tools to simulate a given balance, is that the horse learns incorrect reactions which look good enough to fool some eyes...but what are they training the horse to do? Assume a look, rarely more.
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul. 28, 2004
    Location
    Texas
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    As stated in my post above, I personally think the Pessoa with a bit may be too much. I think the Pessoa is best used for back conditioning, not "teaching" a frame or whatever. Here is what I use it with:

    http://www.doversaddlery.com/hackamo...and/p/X1-0853/
    friend of bar.ka



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