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  1. #1
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    Feb. 1, 2013
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    Default Appropriate show fees for 2013 for students on schoolies?

    Eventually I will ask all the questions I want to on here, in the meantime thank you everyone for your time, input, and patience!

    I would like to get an e-mail out to students who might be interested in showing this year with as much information and potential fees and costs soon. Most students would be on schoolies, and showing somewhere between flat classes and 18" to 2'3". A few will be on owned or leased horses showing up to 3'.

    Last couple of years students riding schoolies just had to pay for their classes and stabling costs, no trainer's fee because schoolies needed miles and I figured it to be a type of trade.

    Schoolies are now experienced, if not seasoned yet, but I trust them not to be naughty or silly with the smaller students and last year they won quite a bit.

    Current thinking: students who take schoolies pay for portion of trailerling costs, all of stabling, grounds fees, classes, etc plus a trainers fee of $35 each day. If more than one student shows the horse, they split stabling/trailering but still pay full trainers fee.

    Will limit horse's class to 2 flat and maximum of 3 o/f (considering max height of 2' 3")

    Am I similar to what others charge? Can I charge a fee for using a lesson horse, on top of trainer's fee?

    How do you figure out how much to charge for fuel? Is it set, or depending on gas prices at the time?

    How much to say, take a leased or owned horse in a class for schooling? Assuming that if a schoolie needed schooling I wouldn't charge for it and would eat the class cost.

    Do you pay for all show costs up front and have students reimburse you (if going to show grounds that have stabling fees separate from showing fees)?

    If showing out of town, do you charge for your hotel costs?

    Lastly, if other students come along to help out, how do they get paid, or do they? Last year, we paid for their hotel costs if an out of town show and maybe a meal or two.

    All assuming too that I will be taking my guy along to compete, as well.

    Thanks, all!



  2. #2
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    Jun. 20, 2012
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    The Part of TN in the Wrong Time Zone
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    Wow you seem like a generous person! Let me see what I can answer.

    Am I similar to what others charge? Can I charge a fee for using a lesson horse, on top of trainer's fee? My trainer charges $45 for a lease of a school horse at a show. His trainer fee is the same as his semi-private lessons, $65. (These are at A shows. It cost the same to lease a horse at a schooling/C show, but the trainer fee is only 50).

    How do you figure out how much to charge for fuel? Is it set, or depending on gas prices at the time? My trainer charges $1.50 per mile, but he normally has over 6 horses going to any given place. $45 local trailering within 50 miles.

    How much to say, take a leased or owned horse in a class for schooling? Assuming that if a schoolie needed schooling I wouldn't charge for it and would eat the class cost.
    Wait for you to school it or for the kid? for the kid to take it in the schooling round, it should only be his/her entry fee for the round. For you to do it, they pay the class fees and if you ride it to prep you charge the same as for a pro-ride which I've seen as anywhere from $20-80. My trainer charges $50.

    Do you pay for all show costs up front and have students reimburse you (if going to show grounds that have stabling fees separate from showing fees)? You put in all the entries, and then they pay you, yes. So you order all the stabling, shavings, etc. and then give them a bill for your expenses at the end including schooling, lease fees, trailering, etc.

    If showing out of town, do you charge for your hotel costs? My trainer has us split his hotel and food costs.

    Lastly, if other students come along to help out, how do they get paid, or do they? Last year, we paid for their hotel costs if an out of town show and maybe a meal or two.
    Not riding students? I'd say that's a fair trade as long as they're doing work. Our grooms get paid by the barn, then tipped by us, but in the terms of just another student helping out it would be appropriate to pay for their hotel and a meal or two.
    .אני יכול לעשות הכל על ידי אלוהים



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun. 12, 2009
    Posts
    527

    Default

    I'll answer your questions as best I can as to what our barn does.

    Quote Originally Posted by eastendjumper View Post
    students who take schoolies
    Whether or is not a leased schoolie, the student is expected to pay all of their show related fees (entries, lodging, personal transportation, etc.), trailering fees and day/trainer fee. Feed, bedding, and trainers hotel room are split amongst everyone who attends the show.

    Can I charge a fee for using a lesson horse, on top of trainer's fee?
    I'm sure you could but they don't at our barn.

    How do you figure out how much to charge for fuel? Is it set, or depending on gas prices at the time?
    It is set at $1.50 a mile with a $40 minimum.

    How much to say, take a leased or owned horse in a class for schooling?
    If you're riding in the class, then the client who is showing the horse after you pays for the class you ride in.

    Assuming that if a schoolie needed schooling I wouldn't charge for it and would eat the class cost.
    Not at our barn, same cost as if you leased or owned the horse, the client pays for the class and you riding the horse is covered in the day fee.

    Do you pay for all show costs up front and have students reimburse you (if going to show grounds that have stabling fees separate from showing fees)?
    We've never run into the scenario in parens but if it is included in the show fees then the office takes care of the splitting.

    If showing out of town, do you charge for your hotel costs?
    Yes, it is split amongst all the clients going to the show.

    Lastly, if other students come along to help out, how do they get paid, or do they?
    I was always able to work off day fees as a kid. At our barn if they come along to help out, that's their prerogative and they pay their own way. Seems harsh but that's how it works at our barn.
    "Be the change you want to see in the world."
    ~Mahatma Gandhi



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr. 1, 2006
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    1,031

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    If a student wants to take a schoolie, I always charge a coaching fee. If the horse is green and I feel like I need to ride it because the horse isn't capable of being ridden by the student, I will do a training ride for free (whereas if the horse needs a training ride because the student is not capable of giving the ride it needs to school, I charge for a training ride). The student also pays for day fees, hauling, clipping etc. and all show fees. If the horse is not being leased, then a "show lease" fee applies to cover the loss of income the horse could be earning at home doing lessons.

    The only exception to this is if the student was doing me a favor, such as a horse that needs to be in the ring with a junior and I approach the student to ride it for me. That arrangement may depend on the situation...I may not charge anything and cover all costs, or may have the student cover the class/stall fees but do the training for free if it's mutually beneficial for the student as well (say their horse is out with an injury and they want to show).

    To me it's about who does the approaching....do you approach the kid and say "Pokey needs miles, can you show him for me?" Then you should bear some, if not all, of the costs.

    If the student asks to show or wants to show and you're letting them use a school horse, IMO, you need to at a minimum charge for your time coaching them and for hauling and care. If you give them a break on a training ride because the horse is green, so be it, but disclose this up front so the don't always expect free services in the future.

    In one situation, a horse really greened up unexpectedly and needed a pro on for the division the kid was going to do. In this case, we split the cost of the division fees and didn't charge for the riding.

    You have to be flexible and ask who is benefiting who...but this is a business, and if you make a practice of giving too much for free, not only do you not make any money, but that is what people start to expect and then balk and higher fees down the line.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. (Aristotle)



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct. 2, 1999
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    My experience for a training fee is that it's usually about the same as the cost of a lesson.

    Certainly your students should pay all expenses, including hauling, and then if multiple riders share a horse, split applicable ones.

    As far as charging for the use of the lesson horse, you should really think about how it plays out for your business. If there would be lessons running at home and taking the horse away impacts your lesson capacity, it's probably a good idea to charge a lease fee. If you want to encourage riders to go out and show on your lesson horses to enhance your reputation and to give them a taste towards the next step, which is buying their own horse, you might not charge a fee beyond the coaching fee. You might also consider your regular lesson policy - do you charge more for a lesson on a school horse than a private horse? If so, your show fee should reflect that.

    I would have your students write a check for all costs you have to pay (like a shared stall) at the same time entries are sent in. I would not put yourself in a position where you are advancing the cash for that. Usually you would bill for trainer fees etc at the end of the month.

    I applaud you for taking the time to work out all the costs and break them down and document them for your students - this kind of communication is really valuable. My trainers, when they put up show signups on the chalkboard, usually put up the variable costs (for hauling etc) at that same time, so you could see what to expect.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



  6. #6
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    Apr. 9, 2012
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    I think it's entirely fair to charge for the use of a lesson horse. In fact, as someone who owns her own horse, I think it is unfair to charge someone riding their own horse the same amount as someone who uses a schoolie. Obviously, if it's a green horse and needs miles, that's one thing.

    You can either charge for the use of a schoolie or give a slight discount to those providing their own horses.

    And your rates look low.
    Born under a rock and owned by beasts!


    2 members found this post helpful.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep. 23, 2002
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    Eastern MA
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastendjumper View Post
    Am I similar to what others charge? Can I charge a fee for using a lesson horse, on top of trainer's fee?
    Definitely. My barn does - they're down a horse back home, so I look at that fee as a sort of inconvenience fee! My barn charges $25/day for the horse and $80 for the trainer's fee - seems fair to me since she's at the show all day with me, not teaching the 10 students should could have been had she been home. So more than a lesson fee, but still fair.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun. 12, 2007
    Location
    CT
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    I showed a bit on schoolies in the early to mid 1990s. At that time, trainer charged a training fee that was the same as a one hour group lesson ($25). This included warming the rider up, and riding the horse in the morning if necessary. Everyone paid their own expenses (stall, shipping, etc.), which were split if people were sharing a horse. If you were riding a schoolie, you had to pay to lease the horse for the day. It varied from $25 per day to $100 per day.



  9. #9
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    Feb. 1, 2013
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    307

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    Thank you everyone!



  10. #10
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    Feb. 1, 2013
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    Thank you everyone!



  11. #11
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    Feb. 18, 2001
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    New York, NY
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    For single-day local shows, my trainer charges $75 for coaching, $75 for hauling, plus $50 if you're using a school horse.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    May. 5, 2009
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    Location: Indiana, but my heart is in Zone II
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastendjumper View Post
    Eventually I will ask all the questions I want to on here, in the meantime thank you everyone for your time, input, and patience!

    I would like to get an e-mail out to students who might be interested in showing this year with as much information and potential fees and costs soon. Most students would be on schoolies, and showing somewhere between flat classes and 18" to 2'3". A few will be on owned or leased horses showing up to 3'.

    Last couple of years students riding schoolies just had to pay for their classes and stabling costs, no trainer's fee because schoolies needed miles and I figured it to be a type of trade.

    Schoolies are now experienced, if not seasoned yet, but I trust them not to be naughty or silly with the smaller students and last year they won quite a bit.

    Current thinking: students who take schoolies pay for portion of trailerling costs, all of stabling, grounds fees, classes, etc plus a trainers fee of $35 each day. If more than one student shows the horse, they split stabling/trailering but still pay full trainers fee.

    Thanks, all!
    I think you are pretty fair but some parents may want to discuss this, depending on their financial status etc. If Susie wasn't charged last year for Dobbin and got Dobbin around, being green and needing miles and all, but now Susie is bring charged, just be ready to have that discussion. "Why weren't we charged last year?" " Dobbin needed miles" " why are we charged this year?" " Dobbin has show miles" " That Susie put in him?"

    You see how that goes. For the record- I agree what you are now charging is "the norm". I'm just giving you a heads up what you 'may' come across, been there, seen it.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies



  13. #13
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    Mar. 20, 2013
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    Way up North
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    I lease, so it doesn't really apply to me the same way, but when riders show a school horse at our barn, for a local show it is $20 or $40 per day (depends on the school horse...the ponies carting kids around w/t classes I think are $20, $40 is for the horses in h/j classes). Then on top of that we pay a trainer fee. We all pay our own costs (hauling, etc.). I have only done local shows with this barn, so don't know how out of town works.

    Pennywell Bay has some good points about changing things from last year. I would not word it as "Dobbin now has show miles", but maybe couch it as you would otherwise be using him for lessons, so taking him to a show is a loss of revenue.



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by MillysGirl View Post
    Pennywell Bay has some good points about changing things from last year. I would not word it as "Dobbin now has show miles", but maybe couch it as you would otherwise be using him for lessons, so taking him to a show is a loss of revenue.
    Agreed, just make it that you're reworking your fee schedule.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



  15. #15
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    Feb. 21, 2011
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    367

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    Can I charge a fee for using a lesson horse, on top of trainer's fee?


    Yes, definitely. Ever barn I've ever known that had school horses charged anywhere from $35 to $75 for students to use the horse at a 1 day show. For a multi-day A or AA rated showed, even more. Show coaching ranges from about $50-$125 a day depending on the level. Barns that attend only schooling shows have lower rates than say, a BNT on the AA circuit.

    How much to say, take a leased or owned horse in a class for schooling? Assuming that if a schoolie needed schooling I wouldn't charge for it and would eat the class cost.

    Many trainers charge for pro rides (although not all). This can be up to $50 a class. If a student asks you to show Dobbin (her own horse) to prepare him for her, you are completely within reason to tack on a fee for that on top of your coaching/training fee. I have never been charged for my trainer to ride my horse in the schooling ring, only in the show ring.

    Do you pay for all show costs up front and have students reimburse you (if going to show grounds that have stabling fees separate from showing fees)?

    Students should pay for their stalls, entries, etc. Let them settle that with the show office or provide you with a blank check. Many larger shows also take credit cards. I don't think that you should pay for a student's stall and entries and only be reimbursed after you bill them. As a client, I've always paid my expenses upfront.

    If showing out of town, do you charge for your hotel costs?

    Everyone going to the show splits the cost of your hotel. At my barn this falls under the umbrella of "shared expenses."

    Lastly, if other students come along to help out, how do they get paid, or do they? Last year, we paid for their hotel costs if an out of town show and maybe a meal or two.

    This depends. If you hire them to work (whether it be to groom, clean stalls, feed, get horses to the ring, etc.), you should lay out your expectations clearly and their lodging should be paid for by the clients under the shared expenses. This should only be the case if you really plan to put them to work. If they are just inexperienced kids/adults coming to help out and lend a hand where they can, I don't think payment is necessary as they are going more for the experience but it might be nice to buy a dinner or two, etc. to thank them for their support.



  16. #16
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    Jun. 20, 2008
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    First w/ the level of showing your lesson horses will be doing - 18'-2.3" I think you're wise to keep things cost conscious...I also think you should plan on letting those sharing a horse ride in 1 division each -you stated above 2 flat and 3 O/f classes... at the low fence heights you could have 2 O/F and 1 hack per division.

    For the lesson horses you could package the fee so it's one price.. some people new to showing prefer 1 fee vs a breakdown. But you could package the horse fee & coaching/training fee as one or include trailering /day care for local shows and then for overnight shows have the 1 fee plus the associated fees for stabling and trailering (assuming overnight shows would be further away) I know of one barn who lost a huge client base because of their creative bill. You also need to keep your fees in line w/ what your market will bear. You want to encourage your students to show and they need to have a realistic picture of the costs... don't make it so expensive they can't go, don't make it so reasonable it costs you. best of luck to you. You sound like you are working hard to make it a fun and enjoyable experience for your riders and their parents.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottagrey View Post
    First w/ the level of showing your lesson horses will be doing - 18'-2.3" I think you're wise to keep things cost conscious...I also think you should plan on letting those sharing a horse ride in 1 division each -you stated above 2 flat and 3 O/f classes... at the low fence heights you could have 2 O/F and 1 hack per division.


    For the lesson horses you could package the fee so it's one price.. some people new to showing prefer 1 fee vs a breakdown. But you could package the horse fee & coaching/training fee as one or include trailering /day care for local shows and then for overnight shows have the 1 fee plus the associated fees for stabling and trailering (assuming overnight shows would be further away) I know of one barn who lost a huge client base because of their creative bill. You also need to keep your fees in line w/ what your market will bear. You want to encourage your students to show and they need to have a realistic picture of the costs... don't make it so expensive they can't go, don't make it so reasonable it costs you. best of luck to you. You sound like you are working hard to make it a fun and enjoyable experience for your riders and their parents.
    ^^^^^^ this is worded perfectly!!!! Know your client base!!
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies



  18. #18
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    Feb. 1, 2013
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    Thank you everyone! These posts have been very helpful and gives me a great start.

    In trying to figure out the fees for taking a lesson horse (I agree that packaging fees is the most reasonable and will aim for that) I need to figure out a simple formula for charging for the use of the horse and trainers fee. What I am roughly coming up with is the flat trainer's fee (which is the average lesson price) + $10 per class they take the horse into. Most of the shows we are heading to are schooling, and divisions are a rare thing in our area. This way, students only riding in one flat class don't get charged as much as the kid going in several. Students still split stabling costs equally as the horse is there reagrdless of how many classes he is in.

    Warm?

    And if I am also showing, do I pay an equal share of my hotel room, or let my clients split that soleley between them? I can see both arguments; maybe I wouldn't be going to the show at all if I wasn't coaching their kids, and my horse is just a tag-along, but on the other hand, I can see clients thinking they were ending up paying for me to show on my own horse.



  19. #19
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    Jan. 8, 2013
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    Your horse should be included in the split of shared expenses. You are less available to you clients at the show because you have your own horse showing as well; the fee split should reflect that. Otherwise billing rates sound good!



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