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  1. #41
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    Jun. 11, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by LisaO View Post
    "That is really too bad you had to go through all this. Seems like a lot breeders are crooks these days."
    I suspect it's just the opposite. The Net has made everything and everyone so transparent that it's hard to be dishonest and not be found out.

    There are always going to be bad apples.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Oct. 30, 2005
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    California
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    1,119

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    jjshorse, you can post your experience on that YELP page also.
    The bad apples occasionally drop in to try and buy horses too, unfortunately it is much more difficult for a farm to publicly warn others about an individual who is out "shopping" than it is for the public to complain about a business via the internet. As for breeder "red flags", watch out for those who seem to have too many horses with no real program or focus. They probably do have too many to manage properly unless there are other, more reliable sources of income in the picture.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #43
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    Sep. 28, 2006
    Location
    Grayson, KY
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    624

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    Just the name makes my blood pressure rise and has given me a hefty dose of distrust of people... . So sorry for what you've gone through.
    There is no secret so close as that between a rider and his horse-Robert Smith Surtees
    Breeding TBs, Connemaras and TB/Conn crosses for eventing
    www.twistoffateeventing.com


    3 members found this post helpful.

  4. #44
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    Aug. 15, 2010
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    1,641

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    Quote Originally Posted by Perfect Pony View Post
    There are some very nice people in California, but the majority of "breeders" here are pretty crazy/bad with horsemanship that would make most on here shudder. Several are places that spoken of highly on these boards only because of their online facade. I have gone to visit places with pretty locally famous stallions that made me very sad in person. Many with too many sad looking mares and foals standing around in small dry lots. Owners trying to feed me a load of BS.

    I would buy another pony from goodpony, or Rosewood Connemaras. I would buy a horse from Mystic Oak Ranch (although I have not been there I have heard good things about her personally). clint has a couple mares and a personal operation, I'd buy a horse from her. When I win the lottery maybe I'll buy a pony from honeylips Those are people in CA I know are good people and I thought I should call them out so they don't think I think all people in CA are nuts!
    Thank you too PP!

    I sincerely think there are many good breeders here in CA - I just think many of them fly under the radar and very few post on COTH (it is more East Coast oriented). I think CA is a huge state, and one that does attract "new money (neuveau riche)", aka crazies. To be honest, there are a few of those in other states too, but we are such a big state, we may have more then our fair share.

    This past year has been a rough one for Cali breeders, hasn't it? But I really do think we have a lot of honest, forthright breeders too. And there are several of us that have big pastures and reasonable set ups for young horses.

    When I win the lottery, I might join you in buying one of those ponies


    3 members found this post helpful.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Dec. 31, 2000
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    El Paso, TX
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    You might see if you have a City Attorney. If so, you can often go directly to them to push criminal charges. I did that once for someone that shot my dog (in my fenced backyard), and AC refused to pursue it because they didn't see it happen, even though his brothers saw it happen, and he admitted he did it (he was 23 yrs old and thought it would be funny). City Atty filed charges, and took him to court. Maybe you can try something like that.



  6. #46
    Join Date
    Jul. 21, 2011
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    Co
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    4,278

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    Idaziens

    "Baron Thomas Juergan von Guettner" the asscociate of Donald Slaughter appears to have no verifiable credentials to match his claims of equestrian prowess or his "title". Americans are suckers for a title..

    Apparently he owns a low end film/video company and there are a few (unimpressive) photos of him on a horse in his advertisements.No FEI or USEF record.

    I am sorry that the OP has had to deal with another dishonest horse person.

    When you have your ducks in a row, as does the OP, it is important to use the internet to warn others.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 2000
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    Southern Pines, N.C.
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    11,450

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    Quote Originally Posted by jjshorse View Post
    I guess my husband has advised me to contact the district attorney in Livermore regarding a fraud charge.I just think the attorney fees would eat up anything I might gain from a fraud case.....She has lied to me 8 times about sending money, so some stupid thing made me think she might at some time honor her contract. I have a small claims judgement, and I will turn it over to collections at some point...from the phone calls I have had trying to choose a collection agency, I would never want them on my heels...they intimidate me and I am the one hiring...It is just hard to spend more money...but you are right...I have had numerous private messages with horror stories...I just wish I had known...

    You might have had a (civil) cause of action for fraud if you bought an in utero foal and the mare had never even been bred and the lady lied to you about the mare's pregnancy status. Or if you bought the in utero foal knowing that the mare had not yet been bred, but the inducement was that the mare would be bred and you would have the designer foal you wanted. And THEN she never bred the mare. If either of these situations describe what happened, then you should have added a cause of action for fraud to the cause of action for breach of contract. You cannot get punitive damages for breach of contract, but you can for fraud.

    But, if she bred the mare and tried to get a foal out of her, then she is not guilty of fraud, just of non-performance on the contract (which is what you already have the judgment for).

    I can't see a DA getting involved. This is a breach of contract action -- one in which the Plaintiff can be made whole by payment of money. That is what civil courts are for.
    "I used to have money, now I have horses."


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #48
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    Aug. 15, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Helpus View Post
    I can't see a DA getting involved. This is a breach of contract action -- one in which the Plaintiff can be made whole by payment of money. That is what civil courts are for.
    I tend to agree - especially in these "tight budget times" - most government agencies (and DA is local government) are stretched pretty thin. Might even consider small claims court, which isn't very expensive. It really sucks - there are so many good breeders out there, but all it takes is a few bad ones to taint all of us.

    FWIW - I don't think Don Slaughter is a breeder, he's a trainer/dealer, and that is a whole 'nother animal. Seems like there are many more bad stories out there about the horse dealer (horse trader has been a bad word for ages) then there are about the breeder.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #49
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    Oct. 21, 2003
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    8,675

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticOakRanch View Post

    FWIW - I don't think Don Slaughter is a breeder, he's a trainer/dealer, and that is a whole 'nother animal. Seems like there are many more bad stories out there about the horse dealer (horse trader has been a bad word for ages) then there are about the breeder.
    This is a good point! It seems around here there are quite a few that are both (Like Jill, or Airdance). They are just looking to sell horses. They take cheap horses, free horses, whatever they can get and breed them and/or try to flip them. They are just doing everything and anything to make a buck, it's not about some planned breeding operation with goals and objectives to further the breeding of exceptional horses or ponies. It's just about keeping a supply of horses and the sales happening.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Aug. 25, 2011
    Location
    Virginia
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    130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mardi View Post
    It seems that Airdance/LD posts on COTH ?
    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...tallions-in-CA

    See post #13 (complaint) and post #16 (response)
    This is why threads like these are good, but disappointing. I hadn't put two and two together until Derby Lyn's post, then did a head bang when I remebered the thread Mardi mentioned.

    I reallllllly liked Noble Houston for my mare, and especially liked that he was an approved thoroughbred. Even though I am probably a few years away from breeding, Noble Houston was on my (for fun) short list. Now I'll have to rethink that...



  11. #51
    Join Date
    Nov. 1, 2005
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    The Prairie
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    5,441

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Helpus View Post
    You might have had a (civil) cause of action for fraud if you bought an in utero foal and the mare had never even been bred and the lady lied to you about the mare's pregnancy status. Or if you bought the in utero foal knowing that the mare had not yet been bred, but the inducement was that the mare would be bred and you would have the designer foal you wanted. And THEN she never bred the mare. If either of these situations describe what happened, then you should have added a cause of action for fraud to the cause of action for breach of contract. You cannot get punitive damages for breach of contract, but you can for fraud.

    But, if she bred the mare and tried to get a foal out of her, then she is not guilty of fraud, just of non-performance on the contract (which is what you already have the judgment for).

    I can't see a DA getting involved. This is a breach of contract action -- one in which the Plaintiff can be made whole by payment of money. That is what civil courts are for.
    What she said ^^

    You are better off doing what your are doing and trying to find a cost efficient way of collecting on the judgment. You've got the judgment so Step 1 has been accomplished. Now you need to get to Step 2 and try to collect on it.

    I would start by contacting the small claims court where you got the judgement and see if they have any free advice for you before you start spending more money to collect on your judgment. There may be things you can try to do yourself before you have to take further steps of hiring a private attorney to collect on the judgement. Good luck.
    I love cooking with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Mar. 12, 2006
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    Western South Dakota
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpotMyH/J View Post
    This is why threads like these are good, but disappointing. I hadn't put two and two together until Derby Lyn's post, then did a head bang when I remebered the thread Mardi mentioned.

    I reallllllly liked Noble Houston for my mare, and especially liked that he was an approved thoroughbred. Even though I am probably a few years away from breeding, Noble Houston was on my (for fun) short list. Now I'll have to rethink that...
    I don't think Noble Houston was actually Approved. I believe he was Recorded in Book II with the RPSI.



  13. #53
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    May. 4, 2003
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    Canada
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    Just scrolled through quickly - why does the name Lisa Dunkley sound so familiar? Don't call me a troll, please, but this name rings bells ?
    Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique


    1 members found this post helpful.

  14. #54
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    Oct. 13, 2003
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    Eastern Pacific coast
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    The OP's case is now on Rate My Horse Pro....
    http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/equine...-dunckley.aspx
    -Amor vincit omnia-


    5 members found this post helpful.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Sep. 27, 2000
    Location
    Southern California - on a freeway someplace
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    9,691

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxtrot's View Post
    Just scrolled through quickly - why does the name Lisa Dunkley sound so familiar? Don't call me a troll, please, but this name rings bells ?
    Are you on Facebook? She friended me awhile back, identifying herself by her COTH name or saying she posted here. Should I unfriend (or is that Unfriend?) her?
    The Evil Chem Prof



  16. #56
    Join Date
    Aug. 30, 2007
    Location
    Southern California
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    599

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    Quote Originally Posted by ldaziens View Post
    I'm sure there are honest people in CA as well as nuts/fraudsters/crooks in other states, but CA has some recent doozies:
    * Jill Burnell

    * Catherine Monmartre, the Fresian breeder/expert who pretended to be French Royalty and faked her own death
    http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?se...cal&id=8864031

    Plus this one.

    The thing that baffles me is how long they manage to stay in business / keep burning people. There are some gifted con artists to be sure
    And this one

    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...resa-Groesbeck


    1 members found this post helpful.

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Sep. 3, 2010
    Posts
    56

    Default Speak out against dishonest individuals!!!

    First of all, THANK YOU for being brave enough to speak out about your bad experience with this farm & individual. Everyone has the right to freedom of speech whether or not you have a judgement in hand.
    Last edited by Jumper_SoCal; Sep. 27, 2013 at 02:57 PM.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Aug. 25, 2007
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    8,647

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    I work in a DA's office part time. I'm retired from the State Bar of Texas and I help out as The World's Oldest Law Clerk.

    As part of my duties I research theft and fraud cases and review evidence to see if a criminal law has been broken. To make out a criminal case the State must prove each element of the offense beyond a reasonable doubt. One element in both theft and fraud is intent. The State must prove that when the alleged perpetrator took the money (or other property) as part of a commercial arrangement that they had intent to either not perform the contract or otherwise keep the money (or property) without providing value. The fact that they took on more work than they could perform or they ran unto hard times or they had some financial reverse does not necessarily convert a failure to perform under a contract into fraud or theft. It's the intent present at the time the transaction occurs.

    Sometimes the actions of the defendant are clear, one way or the other. Most of the time they are not. If intent is not clear then the matter will likely be labeled as "civil" and the DA will not go forward. I've sent many like this "up the line" and had to grit my teeth when I did it because it was functionally clear that the perpetrator was a scoundrel but there was not sufficient evidence to establish that they were a scoundrel in this transaction.

    In a few instances with a little more work I've seen close cases "bootstrapped" and prosecutions successfully had. Sometimes just the threat of prosecution jars loose the victim's money. Not always, though.

    If the OP has a civil judgement then that is public record. Unless otherwise prohibited under state law that public record may be disseminated. I presume they've properly docketed the judgement. They should also ensure that they take steps to keep it "alive" in the court system. Docketed judgements are liens on both real and personal property in most places. I've seen pleasant surprises to judgement creditors years after an event. I've seen more unpleasant surprises, truth be known. Still, the cost to keep it alive are relatively modest and worth the "value of the chance."

    Good luck in getting your money back.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


    2 members found this post helpful.

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Jul. 21, 2011
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    Co
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    4,278

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    As a non-legal person I have a question, perhaps a stupid one, but a question none the less.
    If the court orders someone to pay a judgement and they don't pay it, why are they not considered in contempt and hauled before the judge?

    OP glad to see your case on Ratemyhorsepro. The more people know, the more they can avoid doing business with the bad apples.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Aug. 28, 2012
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    659

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    I work in a DA's office part time. I'm retired from the State Bar of Texas and I help out as The World's Oldest Law Clerk.

    As part of my duties I research theft and fraud cases and review evidence to see if a criminal law has been broken. To make out a criminal case the State must prove each element of the offense beyond a reasonable doubt. One element in both theft and fraud is intent. The State must prove that when the alleged perpetrator took the money (or other property) as part of a commercial arrangement that they had intent to either not perform the contract or otherwise keep the money (or property) without providing value. The fact that they took on more work than they could perform or they ran unto hard times or they had some financial reverse does not necessarily convert a failure to perform under a contract into fraud or theft. It's the intent present at the time the transaction occurs.

    Sometimes the actions of the defendant are clear, one way or the other. Most of the time they are not. If intent is not clear then the matter will likely be labeled as "civil" and the DA will not go forward. I've sent many like this "up the line" and had to grit my teeth when I did it because it was functionally clear that the perpetrator was a scoundrel but there was not sufficient evidence to establish that they were a scoundrel in this transaction.

    In a few instances with a little more work I've seen close cases "bootstrapped" and prosecutions successfully had. Sometimes just the threat of prosecution jars loose the victim's money. Not always, though.

    If the OP has a civil judgement then that is public record. Unless otherwise prohibited under state law that public record may be disseminated. I presume they've properly docketed the judgement. They should also ensure that they take steps to keep it "alive" in the court system. Docketed judgements are liens on both real and personal property in most places. I've seen pleasant surprises to judgement creditors years after an event. I've seen more unpleasant surprises, truth be known. Still, the cost to keep it alive are relatively modest and worth the "value of the chance."

    Good luck in getting your money back.

    G.
    This is very valuable information. Perhaps this post can be made a "sticky" so that we may all refer to it with cases like these?



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