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  1. #1
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    Default Toughts on Musketier as a sire, lots of German tbs in pedigree

    Musketier:
    http://www.pedigreequery.com/musketier2

    Unfortunately there are no conformation pics of him yet because he just finished his racing career at age 10. (sound)

    I don't have much insight into pedigrees and especially german tbs so I thought I'd ask

    Thanks



  2. #2
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    He shares a sire line with Lanciano--Lanciano's sire is his grandsire. Lanciano has been discussed here (or over in Sport Horse Breeding) as very desirable for sport.

    I love the double Caro on the damside as well.

    Ha. Just realized I have this guy marked in my Bloodhorse Stallion Register. Wish they had a conformation shot.



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    A friend is going next week and is taking pics of him for me. I totally forgot about needing a passport until today, otherwise we'd be making the trip together. I'll post them when I get them. There are a few others I like at Adena Springs Canada too.



  4. #4
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    I've also got Mast Track marked in my book! Good looking fellow.



  5. #5
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    I'm remembering, possibly incorrectly, from research I did a while ago. Acatenango has very few get who have actually competed in FEI disciplines and both of them are full TB. However, he has seven stallion sons with get or grandget who have competed FEI in (mostly) eventing. One son is the damsire of a horse who was 3rd at the Bundeschampionat and seems to be with Bettina Hoy now who rode him at Boekelo this year. Another son has a son who is just getting started with Dibo this year. Another son's daughter won the Bundeschampionat-Warendorf last year and is with Michael Jung. His son Kanudos has about seven event horses as sire and is the damsire of MLM's RF Demeter. There are others, but these are the most impressive.

    All of the German Acatenango descendants that have made it to FEI level competition are eventers.

    No, I didn't remember all this. I looked it up again.

    My impression is that the Germans like Acatenango blood for sport horses. His sons are found in all the German studbooks.

    On the bottom there is some well proven chaser blood with Linamix and Relko and Crepello. AND you have a Herod line in Luthier which is always very nice to see.

    He'd probably be a better sport horse sire than North American race horse sire.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    I'm remembering, possibly incorrectly, from research I did a while ago. Acatenango has very few get who have actually competed in FEI disciplines and both of them are full TB. However, he has seven stallion sons with get or grandget who have competed FEI in (mostly) eventing. One son is the damsire of a horse who was 3rd at the Bundeschampionat and seems to be with Bettina Hoy now who rode him at Boekelo this year. Another son has a son who is just getting started with Dibo this year. Another son's daughter won the Bundeschampionat-Warendorf last year and is with Michael Jung. His son Kanudos has about seven event horses as sire and is the damsire of MLM's RF Demeter. There are others, but these are the most impressive.

    All of the German Acatenango descendants that have made it to FEI level competition are eventers.

    No, I didn't remember all this. I looked it up again.

    My impression is that the Germans like Acatenango blood for sport horses. His sons are found in all the German studbooks.

    On the bottom there is some well proven chaser blood with Linamix and Relko and Crepello. AND you have a Herod line in Luthier which is always very nice to see.

    He'd probably be a better sport horse sire than North American race horse sire.
    Thank you Vineyridge. This is very interesting and important to my decision regarding a stallion for the mare I'm breeding. I would love to get a racehorse out of this cross, but I'd need to be very lucky to end up with a good quality turf horse. So, I want to make sure I build on what I think her greatest strength would be if she were sound, and that's jumping. This sounds like the cross I'm looking for.



  7. #7
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    Forgot to mention that Raven Locks is a full sister to Marmite. Marmite was the dam of Madrilene, who was the dam of Carmenae and Black Sky. This is a foundation TB line for sport horses.
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  8. #8
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    Wow, this is sounding more and more like the horse that will give me my best chance. Except for what I see in front of me the mare I'm breeding is a total shot in the dark. I've never ridden other Artax's or horses out of her dam, but I love her conformation and mind so I'm going to give it a go http://www.pedigreequery.com/cantstoplovingsue

    This might interest you. Northern Spur finally made it to Foggy Bottoms farm in Geneseo and so I visited him. What a nice horse in every way. He's much more substantial than I expected him to be, he has an incredible wither/shoulder and great engine and is about 15.3. He's also a very gentle and sweet creature. None of the pictures I've ever seen of him reflect his nice conformation. I loved his sense of presence and I just wanted him. He's 21 now and is looking like an old man.



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SEPowell View Post
    Wow, this is sounding more and more like the horse that will give me my best chance. Except for what I see in front of me the mare I'm breeding is a total shot in the dark. I've never ridden other Artax's or horses out of her dam, but I love her conformation and mind so I'm going to give it a go http://www.pedigreequery.com/cantstoplovingsue

    This might interest you. Northern Spur finally made it to Foggy Bottoms farm in Geneseo and so I visited him. What a nice horse in every way. He's much more substantial than I expected him to be, he has an incredible wither/shoulder and great engine and is about 15.3. He's also a very gentle and sweet creature. None of the pictures I've ever seen of him reflect his nice conformation. I loved his sense of presence and I just wanted him. He's 21 now and is looking like an old man.
    That is interesting. I've always thought Northern Spur would bring a lot to an eventing sport horse. I do know that he throws small but talented.
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  10. #10
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    Personally I'd be more impressed with all the crosses back to 'French Gray' blood. Abernant is the sire of Aberali an International Jumper shown by Kathy Kusner.
    Caro and Grey Sovereign speak for themselves as proven sporthorse sires.
    The French Gray line also produced Good Twist,Gem Twist through Royal Canopy. All the French Grays go back to Roi Herode.
    This pedigree is more than 50% consolidated French Gray blood.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    That is interesting. I've always thought Northern Spur would bring a lot to an eventing sport horse. I do know that he throws small but talented.
    This mare is 16.2 and so I thought I should go for a taller stallion. Wanting to breed phenotype to phenotype is based purly on intuition, not education or experience but that's my reason for not going for Northern Spur. If I could afford to breed more than one mare I have another I'd breed to him in a heart beat.



  12. #12
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    I agree that there is a remarkable amount of The Tetrarch back in the depths of the pedigree, but there are almost as many Ksar/Dollar lines back there as well. Tail Female also brings in a touch of Bachelor's Double and that mare was crossed with Hurry On. Which is interesting since a cross on those lines produced Precipitation, Furioso's sire.
    Last edited by vineyridge; Dec. 24, 2012 at 02:29 PM.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by PINE TREE FARM SC View Post
    Personally I'd be more impressed with all the crosses back to 'French Gray' blood. Abernant is the sire of Aberali an International Jumper shown by Kathy Kusner.
    Caro and Grey Sovereign speak for themselves as proven sporthorse sires.
    The French Gray line also produced Good Twist,Gem Twist through Royal Canopy. All the French Grays go back to Roi Herode.
    This pedigree is more than 50% consolidated French Gray blood.
    How do I find Abernant in the pedigree?

    Hmmm, this stud also stands Mast Track who, based upon what you and Viney have said also looks like a sport horse stallion (Caro is his paternal great grandsire and Luthier is his maternal great great grandsire) http://www.pedigreequery.com/mast+track

    In a conversation with a friend who is planning her mare's breeding essentially the same way I'm planning mine, the people at Adena Springs recommended Sligo Bay, who, like Northern Spur, is by Saddler's Wells and has that classic Northern Dancer look.



  14. #14
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    Abernant is off the first page in the tail female line. He's Lutine's dam's sire. He's also in Bellypha's dam line.

    Another really interesting thing about this pedigree is the amount of Matchem through both Relic and Hurry On. It's really nicely balanced among the three sire lines for a modern pedigree. There are also several lines to Bachelor's Double. This pedigree has a very large number of proven sport horse lines.

    Personally, I"d rather take a chance on this guy than one of hundreds of No. D sire line sires--at least for sport and turf.
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  15. #15
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    I'd certainly look at Mast Track, too, especially since he's already got some foals on the ground. His page is also quite nice for sport.

    But if I liked the looks of both sires, I'd likely go with Musketier, due to the rarity of his pedigree, the durability demonstrated in his own racing career and his age.

    (Why do these guys always seem to stand on the other side of the country? We don't have anything anywhere near this interesting in my region. Sigh!)



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Abernant is off the first page in the tail female line. He's Lutine's dam's sire. He's also in Bellypha's dam line.

    Another really interesting thing about this pedigree is the amount of Matchem through both Relic and Hurry On. It's really nicely balanced among the three sire lines for a modern pedigree. There are also several lines to Bachelor's Double. This pedigree has a very large number of proven sport horse lines.

    Personally, I"d rather take a chance on this guy than one of hundreds of No. D sire line sires--at least for sport and turf.
    Do the breeders breed for this balance on purpose? (Is that a very naive question?)


    It seems like you need access to very specific horses and an encyclopedic mind to do this.



  17. #17
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    Many of the horses mentioned in this thread have photos on pedigreequery and they're stunning. I love their necksets. Does anyone know if there is a book of photos of European stallions?



  18. #18
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    I think the easiest place to go with lots of photos of TBs and others is Sport Horse Breed Database.
    http://sporthorse-data.com/

    If you go there and put Musketier in you will pull up his pedigree that has one photo. Go to the bottom of the page and you will see his doubled ancestors with percentages for a five generation pedigree. You can change that to a 12 generation one, and it's very interesting reading.
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  19. #19
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    In many cases it's the result of outcrossing--or at least that's what Anne Peters said when I asked here about the mix of the three foundation sires. I don't know if any breeders specifically breed for the balance, but in my research I think I've found that horses with sire lines to all three on the first page seem to be pretty darned good in performance AND in the shed.

    One should mention that Musketier is sireline to Dark Ronald. Apparently German bred horses are being used quite a bit these days because in the main they ARE outcrosses. They also seem to have developed a reputation for durability.
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  20. #20
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    Caro lines are pretty sturdy and sound. But, they can be challenging..a lot of attitude..
    I had one!!



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