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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by loshad View Post
    Not according to the woman who got all up in my grill while I was preggers and eating some edamame for lunch. She claimed soy causes Teh Ghey.
    Oh dear Lord! Don't know which smiley to add here except

    There must not be enough Really Bad Things left in the first world if soybeans are a surrogate now for all things deadly and terrible.
    Click here before you buy.


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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post

    There must not be enough Really Bad Things left in the first world if soybeans are a surrogate now for all things deadly and terrible.
    Not to mention if Weston A Price is an evil outfit set to lead us astray from our healthy gov't subsidized processed foods....now that is deadly and terrible.



  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post
    Not to mention if Weston A Price is an evil outfit set to lead us astray from our healthy gov't subsidized processed foods....now that is deadly and terrible.

    The opposite of the WPF agenda is not Walmart meat and processed foods, necessarily. A straw man argument.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    The opposite of the WPF agenda is not Walmart meat and processed foods, necessarily. A straw man argument.
    You're constantly touting your quest for "facts" and "data," and making it sound like you have privileged access to same. Do you truly deny that genetically-engineered dwarf wheat, RoundUp- Ready soy, and GMO corn are not altering the landscape of what's available to feed our horses, our food animals, and thereby ourselves? That these are not substances that were in ANYONE's food chain prior to 1980? That it may well be these very substances, along with sugar and HFCS eaten in unprecedented quantity by nearly everyone and actively PUSHED by the Government, that are the most likely culprit in the near-ubiquitous lipid abnormalities, metabolic sickness, and autoimmune problems now becoming practically the norm?
    Including the ones you so merrily treat daily singing Kumbaya with your best buddy Astra-Zeneca?

    There was never a "health-care" crisis in America 30 and 50 years ago because the default state of most Americans short of old age was "health." Thanks to 35 years of pushing processed commodity crops over "food," the default state we're looking at going forward is a LIFETIME of chronic illnesses. Treating these, in horse or man, is like locking the door after the barn burned down. You have the average putz so indoctrinated now, they actually think it's NORMAL to eat prescription pills from cradle to grave! People who don't want to are now considered "outliers."

    There are still a few of us who are still interested in finding the way to keep the "barn" from catching on fire to begin with. I have all of our horses on forage-only diets and their health and weight has improved 100%. I myself lost 25 lbs., got my high school waistline back, and got rid of nearly all menopausal discomfort by dropping soy, wheat, sugar, and processed food completely.
    Your mileage may differ; exceptions prove the rule.

    If you wish to support research that will finally PROVE what many of us have observed, and not by cohort-observational studies which are a joke, you might look up the Nutrition Science Institute, a non-profit begun by Gary Taubes and Dr. Peter Attia who are looking for grants to sponsor properly controlled studies.

    BTW--what caused me to start looking for answers elsewhere is when I learned the truly disturbing truth about exactly how many mainstream medical and veterinary procedures and drugs have little to NO legitimate "science" behind them--anecdotal evidence would be generous, "belief systems" more like it. But money-money-money, no problem there! HRT was one of the recent biggies.

    I wouldn't be throwing stones if I were you.


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  5. #45
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    Another straw man argument. But HRT is a very nice example of how science WORKS: make a hypothesis, test it, find it to be fallacious, and discard it. Yes, in the meantime a lot of money changed hands. That is the nature of the pharmaceutical business. Once HRT was demonstrated with reasonable certainty to be unhelpful, it was largely abandoned. That's how the scientific method is supposed to work! The alternative would have been to insist, based on "this makes sense" that it helped and to use it regardless of what studies showed. That is more along the lines of what supplement gurus and pseudoscience types do. Dogma > data. Got any more? Science is wonderful in that it GROWS, as a knowledge base. Which is its definition, after all.

    Having concerns about any number of things in our current lifestyle and system of doing things (which I have) is possible, while still having the opinion that agenda groups like WPF, PETA and many others are part of the problem and not the solution.

    The world is not black or white.

    People who have found things that work for themselves have the luxury of insisting that their way "works". They are not held responsible for making decisions and recommendations for others. I haven't got that luxury (other than with what I put in my own body) so I need to use the best available evidence. In 20+ years of doing this I haven't yet found the fingerprints of government mind control on my prescribing habits or the published research that I value. (there are all kinds out there--one learns to sift wheat from chaff pretty readily)

    If one is making, on a daily basis, decisions and recommendations that, if done badly or with poor evidence might cost somebody their life, one can go ahead and fling rocks at people in the same boat if one wishes. If the worst thing one has to contend with is their adolescent waistline and what new miracle Dr. Oz has to flog today, well, one should count their lucky stars.
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  6. #46
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    Sorry to go back to the original question (and I am probably not adding anything to it).
    Last spring one of my three horses was having weird issues. Most seemed to be autoimmune with no clear reason for them.
    Her diet consisted of a small ration of hay stretcher pellets and timothy hay (grown in my own field).
    Hay stretcher pellets are mainly soy. I removed those and replaced them with alfalfa pellets. This horse seemed to improve after this.
    Now, I know rationally that this horse could have improved after that time anyway. No idea if it is the soy thing or not. Who knows. The other two horses in my barn do fine on hay stretcher pellets. Paranoid side is leaving this horse on alfalfa pellets and enjoying her not rubbing herself raw and the pigment coming back around her eyes.



  7. #47
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    Again, soy *allergy* can definitely manifest with skin issues. And even small exposure for an allergic animal can trigger a reaction.
    Click here before you buy.



  8. #48
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    Trying to educate myself here.

    What are exactly the symptoms of soy allergies in horses?

    However, we truly are seeing more and more horses having allergies and intolerances to soy.
    How one's can without doubt pinpoint that it is SOY in the diet that is sole responsible for x, y or z symptoms?

    That being said. I have no doubt that some animals, just like humans, can have allergies.

    I give soymeal to my broodies and never really have any special issues re: breeding, and fertility and foaling etc. It is the only way to increase the protein intake and lysine intake and fat intake in a reasonnable manner. My broodies are quiet, sane in their mind and so do their foals are so I guess I am the lucky one to feed soy and have niet problems related to it. So far as I know. Hence the curiosity about the symptoms of soy intolerance/allergy. In the event I see something.

    That being said, you US folks are pretty lucky to have all these brand and feed companies to choose from, who will make gazillions of type of food for each demand. Here, there's the local, cheap mill, then Purina (but not the one you have guys, more the 1980's version of it) and if lucky, one or two other brands, like Belisle who works with Altech but offers few choices, and Blue Seal who is considered as the top of the line, but is pricey and full of molasse generally. So if you come at a feedstore in Quebec, and ask for soy free or corn free product... good luck with that.
    Les Écuries d'Automne, Québec, Canada
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  9. #49
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    I have no issue with it. A growing sector of the population has decided that all genetically-modified crops (which frankly, we've been doing for thousands of years) are evil, no questions asked (instead of acknowledging there are many different types and results of crop modification), and soy in particular is the devil incarnate. I've yet to see any valid research and well, I'm not dead yet.

    Now, if your horse has an actual allergy or reaction to soy, then yes, I would say you'd want to avoid it. Beyond that...to each their own, I suppose.



  10. #50
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    How one's can without doubt pinpoint that it is SOY in the diet that is sole responsible for x, y or z symptoms?
    It can be a very difficult process of elimination, especially if one's options are limited as to feed choices. I'm not 100% up to speed on different ways of testing for allergies to food products, but have a somewhat low opinion on blood tests for this in general as there can be a lot of false positives. (happy to be educated to the contrary, this is a broad impression) Skin testing is not always AS useful when the potential allergen in question is a food item, but is probably close to the gold standard, if there is such a thing.

    Since access to this kind of testing is not widely available, most people use elimination diets as a means of trying to sort this stuff out. It's a long and tedious process, as a lot of vague signs and symptoms sort of come and go anyway, are seasonal, they hay varies, the grass is available and then it's not, horses come in and out of the barn . . . it's so hard to eliminate anything from an animal's environment one at a time while keeping everything else the same.
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    How one's can without doubt pinpoint that it is SOY in the diet that is sole responsible for x, y or z symptoms?
    I think I said in my post that I am not positive. I just know that we were having an issue so I removed a variable. Really the variable has more than just soy in it. I switched from a product that had a list of ingredients to a product that has one ingredient. The product I switched from happen to be mainly soy.



  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    You're constantly touting your quest for "facts" and "data," and making it sound like you have privileged access to same. Do you truly deny that genetically-engineered dwarf wheat, RoundUp- Ready soy, and GMO corn are not altering the landscape of what's available to feed our horses, our food animals, and thereby ourselves? That these are not substances that were in ANYONE's food chain prior to 1980? That it may well be these very substances, along with sugar and HFCS eaten in unprecedented quantity by nearly everyone and actively PUSHED by the Government, that are the most likely culprit in the near-ubiquitous lipid abnormalities, metabolic sickness, and autoimmune problems now becoming practically the norm?
    Including the ones you so merrily treat daily singing Kumbaya with your best buddy Astra-Zeneca?

    There was never a "health-care" crisis in America 30 and 50 years ago because the default state of most Americans short of old age was "health." Thanks to 35 years of pushing processed commodity crops over "food," the default state we're looking at going forward is a LIFETIME of chronic illnesses. Treating these, in horse or man, is like locking the door after the barn burned down. You have the average putz so indoctrinated now, they actually think it's NORMAL to eat prescription pills from cradle to grave! People who don't want to are now considered "outliers."

    There are still a few of us who are still interested in finding the way to keep the "barn" from catching on fire to begin with. I have all of our horses on forage-only diets and their health and weight has improved 100%. I myself lost 25 lbs., got my high school waistline back, and got rid of nearly all menopausal discomfort by dropping soy, wheat, sugar, and processed food completely.
    Your mileage may differ; exceptions prove the rule.

    If you wish to support research that will finally PROVE what many of us have observed, and not by cohort-observational studies which are a joke, you might look up the Nutrition Science Institute, a non-profit begun by Gary Taubes and Dr. Peter Attia who are looking for grants to sponsor properly controlled studies.

    BTW--what caused me to start looking for answers elsewhere is when I learned the truly disturbing truth about exactly how many mainstream medical and veterinary procedures and drugs have little to NO legitimate "science" behind them--anecdotal evidence would be generous, "belief systems" more like it. But money-money-money, no problem there! HRT was one of the recent biggies.

    I wouldn't be throwing stones if I were you.
    I'm quoting your whole post but mainstream medical/vet procedures/drugs have little science behind them? Where do you get this from? What exactly are you referring to? Surely not FDA sanctioned pharmaceuticals.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies



  13. #53
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    There are up to 5,000 chemical "additives" in all kinds of foods today which are allowed to be there by the FDA and USDA. Very few of them have been tested, let alone proven either "safe" or "effective."

    I do not have the time to replicate here the education that has taken me over 10 years and thousands of pages of heavy-sledding books and articles, exposing the illusions that our food supply and medical industry are something you should uncritically trust. Many people are learning not to necessarily trust Corporate America or it's illusory "watchdogs," and are doing their own research, and, more importantly, their own experimentations on themselves and their pets.

    If you are looking for information one way OR the other on the merits and unintended consequences of any dietary component, nutriceutical, drug or procedure, there are no lack of sources right here on the Web. One caveat--don't believe something unless you've read the actual study, and KNOW something about what constitutes a reasonably designed one before taking whatever it says as this week's gospel. At the least, you need to understand clearly the difference between relative and absolute statistics. Then, read the entire study, not just the abstract, and certainly not what the dumbed-down press release says. An awful lot of raw data has been, is, and will be spun to fit what someone wants to hear to increase their bottom line. None of us are immune to this. Not the supplement companies, not the vets, and most very certainly not the AMA in spite of the hissing & spitting.

    Read everything, talk to people inside that world, then make up your own mind.

    While it's still legal!


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  14. #54
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    Honest question, then: after 10 years of heavy reading and thousands of citations, are you honestly of the opinion that WPF has it 100% correct and that there is no bias or slant to their writings/teachings?

    A lot of really, really bright people would have to disagree if that's the conclusion you've drawn. I don't mean the "feel good" message of eating what grandma ate. I mean the whole hypothesis, all the way back to Price himself. I do not count myself among their number (the really, really bright people who are in the field) as I have no particular interest in the topic other than being rabidly anti-pseudoscience.
    Last edited by deltawave; Mar. 20, 2013 at 05:22 PM. Reason: can't spell and cook at the same time!
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  15. #55
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    Mine does fine on soy (its in her ration balancer). I tried removing soy from her diet for close to a year - and she was doing better on it then off - so she is back on her old RB - soy and all/


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  16. #56
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    Some people are Cuckoo and irrational. Have at it.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies


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  17. #57
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    Keeping this on-target, relentlessly horse-related:

    Start with evolution. Before human influence, what did Nature design the animal to do? How did it live? What did it eat? Which natural conditions optimized the health and longevity of horses? Just a few:

    Constant movement with free-choice grazing over a large area.
    Social interaction at will with others of their own kind in a self-chosen hierarchy. Very high amount of relatively nutrient-poor, high-roughage forage for which they had to work pretty hard.
    How did they keep like this? Until the debilities of old age, which relatively quickly ended their lives, they mostly naturally stayed at about a body condition score of 4.5 in the wild.

    Now, today there are obviously relatively few of us who can replicate those conditions, though most of us try within the limits of our physical surroundings and checkbook. Most of the hay available to us is MUCH better than the low-nutrient forage that grows wild most places. Horses also have their teeth floated so that they get more value from this forage. They also have to work a lot less hard to get it; for most of them, it's plunked down right in front of them in the stall, no 20-mile hike required.

    Now, assuming your horse has a working set of choppers that will maintain him or her at that 4.5 to 5.0 body condition score, and his energy, feet, and coat are good, I wouldn't feel the need to feed him any kind of refined cereal grain enhancement to his diet. If he's older, and dentally compromised, there are any number of hay pellets on the market that "pre-chew" it for him and will enable him to hold a healthy weight. It's been my personal experience through experimentation that almost any horse given a choice will emphatically choose an alfalfa based product over a soy or beet-pulp based one even if the latter is laced with sugar. There is also absolutely NO place in nature that a horse would be able to access the high fat content of many of these feeds, much of which is soybean oil that if you really smell it is half the time on the edge of rancid, and I have seen the "pickiest" eaters quickly become enthusiastic when you stop trying to make them eat this stuff and give them something that by taste they can recognize as "food."

    On the other end of the spectrum you have horses who'll get hooked on filling up on your beet pulp and molasses, then stand there and ignore good hay because if it's not sugar-coated they're not interested--just like your average first grader!
    I've eliminated both problems just by getting rid of the stuff.

    Another problem is what's actually in the bag. Unfortunately, if you read that "guaranteed analysis" tag, many of them are listed in the vaguest possible terms. Purina Mills is one of the worst offenders. Instead of "Oats." "Alfalfa." "Soybean Hulls" or whatever they'll say, "forage products" or "grain by-products." What does that mean? Usually, whatever commodity is selling cheapest that week that they can grind up to make up the volume and come close to the protein and roughage percentages listed. In practical terms, you may be feeding one thing one week, another the next, and never KNOW that because they're not going to LET you know. Therefore, it's a good idea to buy only from feed companies that list the proportions of ACTUAL INGREDIENTS on the bag.

    But the questions you should be asking are these:

    Why am I feeding this stuff?
    What do I hope it's going to do?
    Does my horse really need this on top of his natural diet of grass and hay?
    If so, why?
    How do I know I'm getting what I pay for?
    What side-effects of feeding this diet should I watch out for?

    Personally, I think the explosion of ulcers, Cushing's, strange tumors, immune compromise leading to us seeing MUCH more EPM and Lyme, as well as the now-commonplace equine insulin resistance, all of which were seldom seen before 1990, have a great deal to do with what's being fed to our horses today for very often no good reason except slick marketing.

    I'm keeping this thread on target in accordance with the rules.
    For the human aspect, anyone who's interested may PM me for a list of books by people with very real, peer-reviewed credentials at the highest levels. I'll not argue further with Delta; I respect her point of view though she refuses to respect mine.

    The bottom line is we all should be THINKING about what we do and why.



  18. #58
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    Very happy to respect your point of view if you'll share what it is WRT the specific question I asked about WPF. My "point of view" is "show me the data". If you say you respect my point of view, then a lot of what you're posting gets a big au contraire, unless the data is presented. Reference the so-called "cholesterol hypothesis myth", for one. Got data? I have. But that's the human side. On to horse food.

    I do think the idea that "fixed formula" feeds are clearly superior is worth subjecting to scrutiny. I have NO DOG IN THE FIGHT. I think both ideas have merit. But there is a lot of "spin" with this topic.

    Naturally it sounds ideal to say "wouldn't you rather know exactly what's in that bag of grain?" as opposed to "'they' simply put in whatever happens to be available this week". Another way of looking at it is "if the nutritional profile is unchanged, and minus allergies wherein the conscientious owner would have to avoid certain ingredients, is it better or not better to have a very consistent level of nutrients rather than insisting on OATS (for example) when that might mean oats from Farmer A with quality X in this bag and oats from Farmer B with quality Y in the next bag? Yes, they're oats, but if the oats are 8% protein (using that as a simple example) this batch and 12% the next batch, how is that "better" if one's desire is to manage the diet precisely?

    I'm not saying I endorse this level of micromanagement of nutrients, BTW. But a lot of people do.

    A polypeptide from corn and the same polypeptide from barley are indistinguishable by the animal at the cellular level. The same goes for a starch, a sugar, a lectin, an amino acid, or a mineral. So long as the amounts and ratios of nutrients are correct, and so long as there is no allergy, as unappealing and "unnatural" as it sounds, a mish-mash of this and that is perfectly fine to nourish us. Single ingredients sound "natural" and "wholesome", but that is not the only criterion by which to judge a food product. I'm leaving out the 5000 chemicals and additives. That's a separate topic.

    If you take the emotion out of it (and this completely ruins many a sales pitch) and just look at it from a dispassionate, scientific viewpoint, "grain by products" (again assuming they are not contaminated and the animal is not allergic) are just as potentially nutritious as "whole oats" or what have you. But one very definitely has a "wholesome" air about it and the other does not.

    Slick marketing can go both ways. The agenda groups understand this and have their own spin doctors madly going at it. Clearly the budgets of the "big companies" are larger, but insidious "marketing" in the guise of books written by "experts" and disguised as scholarly works, puff pieces in magazines, and fake press releases cost almost nothing and have a lot of impact.
    Click here before you buy.


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  19. #59
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    Thank you everyone who posted here.

    I think the discussion went a little random at a point but I was mostly interested in people's points of view, and I certainly got that.

    There are clearly 5 sides here:
    - People who don't feed soy because its mostly GMO
    - People who don't feed soy because of phytostrogens
    - People who don't feed soy because its unnatural for the horse
    - People who don't feed soy because their horse didn't do well on it
    And...
    - Those who feed it and recommend it as a valuable feed-stuff.


    Obviously we can all agree feeding soy isn't very natural for the horse, but then again neither is trailering them around and competing them. Or even keep them in an enclosed facility (be it a stall or a paddock) for most of the day. So I believe we can all agree that although most leisure horses can be maintained on a hay only diet, this is absolutely impossible for sports horses and horses with special nutritional needs, and that's when complementary feed-stuffs come into the picture.

    As far as I know, from animal nutrition classes in college, soy is very high energy, low starch and low sugar, so at first glance a very valuable feed for horses. We didn't study horses much, however, so I was curious on what you had to day.



  20. #60
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    Side #6: those who do not feed it because their horses do fine without it, but who don't go out of their way to avoid it. Lots of horses still get hay, corn and oats and not much else, although IME much less so in the "exalted" world of well-to-do horse owners with more money than sense! The slice of horse owners represented here is vastly different from the entire universe of horse owners, for better or for worse.

    Soy is very rarely fed "whole" to horses, although some people do use roasted (?) whole soybeans as an adjunct to forage.

    It is certainly wildly polarizing for a humble legume.
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