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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip's Rider View Post
    Development yes. And if the mammary epithelial cells then differentiate, then there WILL be milk secretion. This is actually quite common in heifers on clover pasture in spring. Lactation can be induced using estrogen, although better results are obtained when it's combined with progesterone. Without getting into 10 lectures worth of material, exposure to estrogens can lead to milk production in some cases. FWIW, I do know this material. I have published peer reviewed articles on this very topic, and I teach a senior/graduate level lactation biology course at an R-1 institution. It is my area of research. My background is in animal nutrition and physiology. Going back to the topic of this thread -- I do use feeds that have soy. It is a good source of amino acids, especially for a plant protein.
    I had always heard that clover can cause a mare to bag up, but what about just a mare's own hormones leading to udder development? In many climates a mare is just beginning to cycle again in spring.



  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post
    wildlifer, considering the tone this thread has taken and the attacks on Lady Eboshi...or whoever that poster is...I don't care...I almost didn't post again. I can't understand why people have to be so damn snarky about every topic they disagree with on this forum. I wasn't being a smart ass to Ghazzu who was only clarifying her point but rather expressing my opinion on eating something that has to be processed in such a manner to even make it edible..and "edible" is debatable to some people in terms of what they put in their bodies and the animal's diets. I consider soy to be edible in chocolate and fermented products only. None of the other stuff for me and I don't feed it to my horses since I had so many problems with it nor my dogs who simply should not eat something like that in the first place.

    I want to clarify one thing before I quit this thread. I DON'T CARE if you want to eat tons of soy or feed huge quantities to your horse. I simply don't care...your business...not mine. But the thread asked what issues we had with soy. Several of us posted and shared our opinions, our experiences, and posted some information. I am simply amazed at the nasty tone this fairly harmless topic has taken.
    I was going to let this go, but on second thought.... Lady Eboshi was "piled on" because of her propensity for rants that go over the edge and leave logic and truth behind. For example, yes, modern medicine and pharmaceutical companies have their faults, but the statement that people were healthier 50 years ago is not true. A higher portion of the population smoked back then and there are many other factors. Now more people are obese.

    For me, personally, I believe in everything in moderation, and will supplement my diet and my horses' with soy for the amino acids, as needed.
    Last edited by grayarabpony; Mar. 22, 2013 at 09:30 AM.



  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    I had always heard that clover can cause a mare to bag up, but what about just a mare's own hormones leading to udder development? In many climates a mare is just beginning to cycle again in spring.
    In cases such as this, there is usually a causative event -- we just fail at identifying it. That "event" could be a condition within the mare, a medication she received, etc.



  4. #124
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    Thanks Skip's Rider. An event within the mare, such as? Rapid cycling?



    Quote Originally Posted by katarine View Post
    Soy causes Republicans.
    In that case it should be banned immediately.



  5. #125
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    Skip's Rider, I am happy for the correction. Do you have some stuff I could look at for self-education? Given that estrogen is a powerful suppressor of lactation in humans, I am apparently in need of more education WRT other mammals.

    Is the work you're doing on lactating/milk-producing cattle, by any chance?
    Last edited by deltawave; Mar. 22, 2013 at 01:03 PM.
    Click here before you buy.



  6. #126
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    Grayarabpony, an "event" in the mare could be many things. If a mare has elevated plasma prolactin or cortisol concentrations for some reason, this could predispose her to lactate if she has the mammary development in place. It kind of boils down to "all the stars aligning" at the right time/place for this to happen. It's highly individual. For example, estrogen upregulates the number of mammary prolactin receptors. Suppose your mare, for reasons we don't know from outward appearances, eats the same amount of clover as another mare but generates two times the number of prolactin receptors. She will be much more likely to lactate. In the spring, we have increased exposure to clover in the pasture, there is increasing daylight and therefore increasing plasma prolactin, the mare returns to cyclicity... While there is mammary development/regression with the estrous cycles during puberty, the concentrations of estrogen are not usually high enough to drive a significant amount of development on their own. There's likely another factor involved.

    Deltawave, unfortunately, there is not a lot of online information related to lactation biology. The Journal of Mammary Gland Biology and Neoplasia is an excellent source of review articles by experts in the field. In many ways, human lactation is quite similar to what we see in livestock species. Estrogen and progesterone drive mammary gland development and can be used to induce lactation (not commonly done). High levels of estrogen (think birth control pills) can be inhibitory during the first few weeks of lactation, but not necessarily later in lactation. The data are conflicting.

    My research has been primarily with dairy cattle, but also with mares and sows. I worked in the human lactation field for ~12 years and still do consulting for an educational company in that area.



  7. #127
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    The Journal of Mammary Gland Biology and Neoplasia
    Dang, that's not one I get . . .
    Click here before you buy.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip's Rider View Post
    While there is mammary development/regression with the estrous cycles during puberty, the concentrations of estrogen are not usually high enough to drive a significant amount of development on their own. There's likely another factor involved.
    Thanks skipsrider. I was wondering about rapid anovulatory cycles but I don't know how much, if any, effect that would have on a mare bagging up.



  9. #129
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    Grayarabpony, what do you mean by rapid cycles or rapid anovulatory cycles? How rapid? How do you know she's not ovulating? If a mare cycles every 8 days instead of every ~21 days, there is something abnormal going on. And, yes, this definitely could impact how she responds to other stimuli (like clover).

    Gee deltawave, this journal is coffee table material. I thought you might be able to access it online. There was a good article on lactation in the mare published in the 2012 AAEP Proceedings. Morresey, PR. Agalactia, Dysgalactia, and Nutrition of the Postpartum Mare. Good general information. Here's a site that has lots of good info http://classes.ansci.illinois.edu/ansc438/
    Last edited by Skip's Rider; Mar. 22, 2013 at 05:30 PM. Reason: Added link



  10. #130
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    Like dw, my life nemesis is misinformation and out of context statements twisted into hysteria, exaggeration, illogical conclusions, etc. Which basically happens everywhere, every day. So yeah, I get a little bit eye-roll-y because it gets old and because sarcasm was a survival skill in my family.

    I'm not sure it's entirely out of place here since it was inferred that I have been bought and trained by the government to spew corporate sales pitches, ROFL. So if some folks got their panties in a twist, well, I'm pretty sure THAT doesn't give you cancer. A rash maybe...


    2 members found this post helpful.

  11. #131
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    The soy thing is a little puzzling to me. Some horses don't seem to do at all well on it, most are fine. There are some ingredients that are always bad for horses, but most horse feeds, while they might not be great, are not actively dangerous.

    My husband has (had, fingers crossed- after 9 surgeries they seem to have removed the last bit) a brain tumor. One of my acquaintances told me that he should NEVER eat soy OMG!!!!11!!1!! because it would cause his brain tumor to grow.

    I thanked her and tucked that information away, with my skepticism meter spinning around while I thought about the millions of people who eat soy and soy-based products in South Asia and other places. I do understand the chemical spraying of soy plants but- do you guys think the other grown foods you eat that are from the grocery aren't sprayed with chemicals? Why focus on soy?

    Anyway, when we went to a consult with the brain doc, who is head guy at the top brain center in the country, I asked him about it and he said: Um....well, he would have to eat A LOT of soy to have it affect his tumor in that way. Like- every day, in large quantities- and even then it might not do anything.

    I am not an advocate for large agri-business companies who use cheap inputs to make cheap food, and I am careful about what my horses eat. But I think there are a lot of unsubstantiated claims about this or that ingredient based on anecdotes, at best, and internet-fueled hysteria at worst. People like fads and claims of GOOD! or EVIL! It's a human characteristic. I also don't think comparing what is healthy or not for humans translates well to horses, which people like to do with their pets, too. If I ate Triple Crown Senior all the time I'd probably feel pretty horrible. My horses, however, do great on it.

    Likewise, I feed one of my dogs raw food almost exclusively because he tends to get bloat on anything else. Another dog only gets a certain type of kibble because he itches his hair off on anything else. The third one eats whatever and is fine. If I ate *any* of their food I'd be pretty unhappy, and probably sick- especially the raw. Different species, different systems; different individuals, different needs. This is just commonsense, right?

    And, just to self-identify- I'm a vegetarian, and have been since I was a child. My husband and I don't generally eat processed foods- they don't taste as good, are full of crappy ingredients, and he is a superlative cook who makes most of what we eat from scratch. He grows a lot of what we eat, or buys it from local businesses, or simply from better sources than Random Large Grocery. I bake all of our bread using high-quality and mostly organic ingredients. We are healthy and enjoy our food- including quite a bit of soy. Moderation in all things is a good rule, and getting all wadded up about how this or that food is going to make everyone sprout tumors and whatever else is just silly.
    You can take a line and say it isn't straight- but that won't change its shape. Jets to Brazil


    3 members found this post helpful.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip's Rider View Post
    Grayarabpony, what do you mean by rapid cycles or rapid anovulatory cycles? How rapid? How do you know she's not ovulating? If a mare cycles every 8 days instead of every ~21 days, there is something abnormal going on. And, yes, this definitely could impact how she responds to other stimuli (like clover).
    Skip's Rider one spring my TB mare seemed to be in continuous heat for weeks and when I called and asked my vet about it, she told me that it's common for mares to have rapid cycles where the mare is not ovulating (presumably the egg is not released and no corpus luteum is formed) in spring when their cycles are starting up again. Later in the season she returned to normal.

    I had my mare for 7 years and that was the only spring I noticed rapid cycles in her; otherwise her cycles seemed normal and regular, when I could tell whether or not she was in heat at all.



  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    Skip's Rider one spring my TB mare seemed to be in continuous heat for weeks and when I called and asked my vet about it, she told me that it's common for mares to have rapid cycles where the mare is not ovulating (presumably the egg is not released and no corpus luteum is formed) in spring when their cycles are starting up again. Later in the season she returned to normal.

    I had my mare for 7 years and that was the only spring I noticed rapid cycles in her; otherwise her cycles seemed normal and regular, when I could tell whether or not she was in heat at all.
    If she appeared to be in continuous heat for weeks, then she likely had elevated estrogen during that time (possibly because follicle didn't rupture and continued to produce estrogen). So, yes, this would be an event that could trigger mammary development. That, in combination with increasing daylight (and increasing prolactin) could trigger milk secretion.



  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip's Rider View Post
    Grayarabpony, what do you mean by rapid cycles or rapid anovulatory cycles? How rapid? How do you know she's not ovulating? If a mare cycles every 8 days instead of every ~21 days, there is something abnormal going on. And, yes, this definitely could impact how she responds to other stimuli (like clover).

    Gee deltawave, this journal is coffee table material. I thought you might be able to access it online. There was a good article on lactation in the mare published in the 2012 AAEP Proceedings. Morresey, PR. Agalactia, Dysgalactia, and Nutrition of the Postpartum Mare. Good general information. Here's a site that has lots of good info http://classes.ansci.illinois.edu/ansc438/
    Irregular, persistent, and/or anovulatory cylces are not that unusual during the transitional period.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


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  15. #135
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    And to complicate things further (as I understand it) some anovulatory cycles give you a persistent and stubborn CL while others don't give you one at all.

    It's a wonder the beasts manage to perpetuate themselves at all.
    Click here before you buy.



  16. #136
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    dw, had a mare one spring in standing estrus for over 3 weeks.
    ultrasounded her to see wth was going on and found she was about 2 1/2 weeks pregnant...
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.



  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    And to complicate things further (as I understand it) some anovulatory cycles give you a persistent and stubborn CL while others don't give you one at all.

    It's a wonder the beasts manage to perpetuate themselves at all.
    I thought hemorrhagic follicles are the most common phenomenom with anovulatory cycles, but it sounds like either situation could cause a mare to bag up.

    Humans have their share of reproductive problems and yet, the world is pretty crowded...



  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    Well, you have to put your trust in a lot of things when you buy. Hay, for instance. Lots of things can go wrong in hay production.

    I go by the company's reputation and how my horses look when assessing a feed. If they're pooping like champs I'm not going to worry about the microorganisms in their gut. Obviously they can handle the job.
    So sure, but with hay you can see and smell the quality for yourself, and your horses can as well. It's not typical for hay to have a lot go wrong, in a really dangerous way, invisibly.

    Pellets, on the other hand, can contain pretty much anything, especially when covered with molasses. There's a lot more trust involved, and it's possible to make much bigger mistakes and have the horse still eat it.

    As far as the microorganisms, I'm not being touchy-feely about that. Dosing the horse with unaccustomed starch or sugars that are not fully digested before they get to the large intestine can cause a big die-off of gut fauna, which in turn can lead rather quickly to laminitis and other very serious ills. The format and digestibility of pelleted/concentrate feeds can change without the chemical analysis changing, and that's the concern I have with variable formula feeds. So you're trusting that they're controlling for all the variables that count, not just the ones they're legally required to report.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by poltroon View Post
    So sure, but with hay you can see and smell the quality for yourself, and your horses can as well. It's not typical for hay to have a lot go wrong, in a really dangerous way, invisibly.

    Pellets, on the other hand, can contain pretty much anything, especially when covered with molasses. There's a lot more trust involved, and it's possible to make much bigger mistakes and have the horse still eat it.

    As far as the microorganisms, I'm not being touchy-feely about that. Dosing the horse with unaccustomed starch or sugars that are not fully digested before they get to the large intestine can cause a big die-off of gut fauna, which in turn can lead rather quickly to laminitis and other very serious ills. The format and digestibility of pelleted/concentrate feeds can change without the chemical analysis changing, and that's the concern I have with variable formula feeds. So you're trusting that they're controlling for all the variables that count, not just the ones they're legally required to report.
    Because everyone can pick out poisonous weeds that might be in hay. Or be able to sell the nitrate or sugar levels with just their eyes, or what the hay was fertilized with.

    Pause. Right, I didn't think so.

    Sorry but your concern about huge amounts of sugar in the food sounds a little paranoid. Sugar levels are part of the analysis as a maximum amount. Most bagged foods are concentrates, so you typically won't feed your horse enough in one meal to set off laminitis. Usually laminitis is a concern if your horse breaks into the feed room and eats half or a whole bag.

    If your horse is so sensitive that you think he might be reacting differently from batch to batch, he needs to be on a different feed. Or the problem (most likely) is something else entirely, like too much forage that's too high in sugar for his needs.

    I have two horses on different ends of the metabolic spectrum, so I feed soaked and rinsed alfalfa cubes, and then add in whatever I think the horse needs, such as salt, flax, or a vitamin/mineral supplement.



  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    dw, had a mare one spring in standing estrus for over 3 weeks.
    ultrasounded her to see wth was going on and found she was about 2 1/2 weeks pregnant...
    We think this happened to my Shetland, who conceived twins that were two different sizes. The little hussy kept standing and standing for the stallion (who was happy to oblige) for nearly 2 weeks, they bred her every other day and we think she ovulated twice during that time. The pony, by the way, gets about 2-3 ounces per day of a vitamin product that is probably soy-based. But there aren't enough "hormones" in that much soy to turn things on their ear.
    Click here before you buy.



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