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  1. #81
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    Lady Eboshi, your determination to not let facts to get in the way is, well, determined.


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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post





    It comes down to what's in your tool box. MD's and vets have a chemical tool box, so their natural inclination is to solve most problems with chemistry..
    Considering that you've not ever had a glance inside my toolbox, I think you should be less free with your generalizations.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


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  3. #83
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    Oct. 25, 2012
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    Ad-hominem pile-ons are as boring as the mud outside my door and they get interesting threads like this one locked, so just knock it off.

    I re-read the whole thread just for giggles, and what jumped out at me is DW's knee-jerk dismissal as "agenda" ridden of anyone and everyone who came out anti-soy for horses, not just me. So what I'd like to hear from DW is this:

    What is YOUR agenda in PUSHING soy, if that's your point of view?



  4. #84
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    Aug. 28, 2006
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    So much foaming at the mouth, so little time.



  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    What is YOUR agenda in PUSHING soy, if that's your point of view?
    Pushing soy is not my point of view, as I have written at least half a dozen times on this one thread. I don't have any particular opinion on soy as a nutrient other than that it is a good source of protein and essential amino acids. If it works for a particular animal, great. If not, find something else.

    I do find the most hard-core 'anti soy' "database" (for lack of a better word) somewhat lacking in hard evidence. Which is my interest in the whole matter. Bad information leads to bad decision-making, and a lot of people are needlessly (IMO) making up their minds about soy based on a lot of hysteria and not as much in the way of good, dispassionate information.

    But this does not, in my view, make me necessarily "pro soy". I am "pro science". Or, if you will, "anti non-science". If the shoe fits and all--a lot of anti soy information is non-scientific and overdramatized. Some of it is not. My aim is at the "bad science" part.

    As I believe I have stated at least 10,000 times.
    Click here before you buy.


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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    Pushing soy is not my point of view, as I have written at least half a dozen times on this one thread. I don't have any particular opinion on soy as a nutrient other than that it is a good source of protein and essential amino acids.

    I do find the most hard-core 'anti soy' "database" (for lack of a better word) somewhat lacking in hard evidence. Which is my interest in the whole matter. Bad information leads to bad decision-making, and a lot of people are needlessly (IMO) making up their minds about soy based on a lot of hysteria and not as much in the way of good, dispassionate information.

    But this does not, in my view, make me necessarily "pro soy". I am "pro science". Or, if you will, "anti non-science". If the shoe fits and all--a lot of anti soy information is non-scientific and overdramatized. Some of it is not. My aim is at the "bad science" part.

    As I believe I have stated at least 10,000 times.
    So, are you saying there is more "science" in FAVOR of soy?



  7. #87
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    Sep. 2, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    Pushing soy is not my point of view, as I have written at least half a dozen times on this one thread.
    Delta, stop expecting SwampYankee, oops, I mean Lady Eboshi to read enough to not assume you are saying something fight worthy. Geez.


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  8. #88
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    Oh for God's sake.

    SW/LE, is it a favorite hobby of yours to fictionalize what other people write? (That was a rhetorical question, btw.)

    I've got to stop reading this thread. What started out as "mildly entertaining" has turned into "very irritating".


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  9. #89
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    It is a PLANT. It is not an alien life form or a pharmaceutical. What are you trying to get me to say?

    I'm not the one who has problems with science. I have problems with BAD science, un-science, non-science, and pseudoscience. Whether it's soybeans or homeopathy or copper bracelets, the twisting of information to frighten people or sell things to them ticks me off. That's all.

    I like evidence, but don't require it when confronted with an empty stomach. I eat stuff. Aim for the good kind, sometimes fall short. I feed my animals with the best knowledge bases I have available. I don't know what else to tell you.
    Click here before you buy.


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  10. #90
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    I think she's trying to get you to say she's right
    Quarry Rat


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  11. #91
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    I am, absolutely, trying to tell you you're right actually. We both have exactly the SAME problem with "bad science," and discussed similar subjects at length in our thread about joint supplements just the other day. We were both in complete agreement that there is no compelling hard data in favor of their use. Many also chimed in that there is no motivation for anyone to actually acquire such data, either, since the stuff sells fine without it and most people just don't care.

    Which comes to the heart of the matter. Every day there are "news" stories telling the layman that "Studies Say." People lacking a pretty rigorous scientific education tend not to look into the provenance of those "studies," but pretty much uncritically buy into whatever the spin on those supposed "statistics" say. They don't realize that numbers can be highly subjective depending on how the study is designed and interpreted, and for what agenda.

    Now, statistics on the scale we crunch them today are actually a very recent tool in terms of human history--barely 40 years old. Like many new technologies, until we learn the truths of its limitations, we tend to be overly impressed by it at first. You repeatedly say "Show me data!!" and that's a very valid position.
    But what if data does not exist, or that which does exist is biased?

    You immediately dismiss any data presented by what you call "agenda" or "activist" groups as "pseudoscientifc" and biased, but what about all the bad science that's been carefully cooked by industry groups, for years, for no more altruistic purpose than pushing their products?

    You and I both acknowledge that some data is ungettable; for instance, it would not be ethical to lock up 5000 humans for 10 years in a feedlot and feed them various restricted diets to prove a scientific point. This leaves us with "observational" data which many times have so many confounding factors they're not worth the match to light them on fire. Hence the constantly conflicting messages the public receives about nearly every aspect of so-called "health," which have the effect of undermining faith in the entire system. Lead-time bias on cancer treatments, anyone?
    Numbers get cooked and spun every single day, everywhere!

    Before we worshipped at the alter of Statistics, we had timeworn things called Common Sense and Collective Experience. It may well be there are no "data" about horses' toleration of various soy products because, like the joint supplements, there is no financial "agenda" for anyone to gather such data. That leaves us with a collection of anecdotes of which this thread is an exemplar. Some think it's a great feed. Some said it gave their horse problems. We are left with probably biased "science" on BOTH sides, and have to make up our own minds.

    Personally, I think questioning the long-term safety of a relatively new crop in the food chain, well-known to be cultivated with very heavy quantities of herbicides and pesticides, is probably a good idea. The fact that GMO is such a new technology that right now we really have no idea of its eventual repercussions also makes blanket endorsement of this product questionable. It is also a fact that we have many new problems arising in both humans and animals that are thought to be directly related to endocrine disruptors is also of concern.

    We are left with the fact that it's almost impossible to prove a negative, but that doesn't de facto leave us with a positive.

    I believe we ALL want the same thing--to know for sure.


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  12. #92
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    Oct. 14, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post

    Personally, I think questioning the long-term safety of a relatively new crop in the food chain, well-known to be cultivated with very heavy quantities of herbicides and pesticides, is probably a good idea.
    3000 years of cultivation is new?


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  13. #93
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    You immediately dismiss any data presented by what you call "agenda" or "activist" groups as "pseudoscientifc" and biased
    Incorrect. I have read a great deal of stuff by the WPF and came to that conclusion honestly, with a lot of time spent reading and digesting. There is nothing "immediate" about my dismissal of their tripe. It is pseudoscientific and enormously biased. And that is an opinion based on a great deal of time spent, nothing immediate about it.

    http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...isticdent.html

    ^^A summary. Not the primary source of my information.

    (Parenthetically, I do find endlessly amusing their "homey" advice to "never eat anything your grandma wouldn't recognize as food". If "grandma" spent some time in India, Indonesia, China or Japan, for starters, she'd have some adjusting of her "eye" to do! Soy products are ubiquitous in other cultures, as are many other things we 'Mericans would find quite unrecognizable. And yet, shockingly, other cultures with other dietary habits manage to live, and often quite well, without the "meat and potatoes" paradigm. I also acknowledge that the aforementioned advice applies mostly to processed things that come in boxes. However, there are odd foods in every corner of the world, not all of them bad for us and not everything that comes in a box is poison, either.)
    Last edited by deltawave; Mar. 21, 2013 at 04:30 PM.
    Click here before you buy.


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  14. #94
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    Jun. 1, 2002
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    Just wait until someone finds out horse feed contains MSG


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  15. #95
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    Jun. 4, 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by eqsiu View Post
    3000 years of cultivation is new?
    That's a bit misleading. It's been cultivated and used a very specific way in Asian diets....only fermented before being consumed. Prior to that it was considered fertilizer and inedible.

    The way it's used in Western society is quite different and it's a very recent addition to our diets generally in the modern heavily processed forms. We've processed soy using presses, solvents, etc... into all sorts of products that are added to all sorts of foods like bread for example....chocolate, baby formula (as discussed earlier), all sorts of vegan products, oils used for dressings, "milks," etc...and only very recently... (as noted by Lady Eboshi and a very good point) added to the diets of livestock. As Ghazzu noted, it has to be treated first as it's not edible by horses in it's raw form....nor to people...and that's why the Asian's fermented it and why it has to be heavily processed with chemicals such as hexane before it can be eaten...and there are still issues with it after this point which is kind of the point of the discussion.

    The real reason it's used so extensively is because it's cheap and plentiful and well marketed..not really because it is such a wonder food. Do a little research on the history of soy.

    Neutral article:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soybean

    Not neutral but has some interesting information in it.

    http://www.optimumchoices.com/Soy.htm


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  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by enjoytheride View Post
    Your education and scientific research mean nothing against my ability to google.
    Dangit, if only google had existed when I was in college, I could have saved so much money and time by just dropping out then!


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  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post

    Neutral article:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soybean

    Not neutral but has some interesting information in it.

    http://www.optimumchoices.com/Soy.htm
    With all due respect, anyone can write whatever they want and put it on Wikipedia or make a website. These aren't credible sources of information. Pubmed is a free website that anyone can access (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/), to find real peer-reviewed information.
    *CrowneDragon*
    As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.


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  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post
    As Ghazzu noted, it has to be treated first as it's not edible by horses in it's raw form....nor to people...and that's why the Asian's fermented it and why it has to be heavily processed with chemicals such as hexane before it can be eaten...
    Not quite.
    It has to be heated to be edible.
    Hexane is used to extract the oils, leaving soybean meal and soy oil as two separate products.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


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  19. #99
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    Oct. 18, 2000
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    SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!!!!!!!
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling


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  20. #100
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    Jun. 4, 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrowneDragon View Post
    With all due respect, anyone can write whatever they want and put it on Wikipedia or make a website. These aren't credible sources of information. Pubmed is a free website that anyone can access (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/), to find real peer-reviewed information.
    Did you actually READ that article before you posted? I somehow doubt it. Here are some REAL studies for you. Read to your heart's content..maybe this is up to your high standards.

    Oh...sorry this is Weston Price's site but it's the only place I could find with a nice summary. I'm sure you can find oodles of studies funded by the soy industry on their sites showing how wonderful soy is to counter this amazing collection of studies showing negative effects.

    http://www.westonaprice.org/soy-aler...effects-of-soy

    http://www.westonaprice.org/soy-aler...of-isoflavones
    http://www.westonaprice.org/images/p...references.pdf


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