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  1. #41
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    The tough part about not wanting to learn to do IV injections but wanting someone else-- a non-DVM-- to do those is that you are putting them in a very tough spot.
    The armchair saddler
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  2. #42
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    My feeling on IV shots is that they should be like knowing how to put a horse down by gunshot -- everyone should know how, few should be regularly doing it.

    Of course, IV shots are useful in emergencies much more often, I hope, than euthanasia techniques, but still -- same concept.


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  3. #43
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    What would I be giving IV in an emergency that I can not give orally?



  4. #44
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    ^^

    Well.... I'm thinking banamine or a tranquilizer that you want to take effect, pronto. That's when I'd want some IV skillz.

    FWIW, I can't think of a time that I did an IV injection that a DVM didn't know about. In non-emergencies, that meant we talked about it first and maybe reviewed some of my technique.

    With a colic case, my vet's standing instructions were to get a temp before I gave banamine. I'd certainly be on the horn to the vet if my horse were clicking before I started any DIY cures.

    When I was in college and my mare decided to colic for a few days during finals, my vet left me with banamine and ace and some instructions. If the mare got really painful and out of control, I was to ace her and give the DVM a 911 call. So IV was desired for the immediate effect. But my vet said, too "look, if you are in that much trouble and you can't get to a vein, I don't care where you stick the needle. Don't get hurt and try not let the mare hurt herself."

    Fortunately, it never came to that. But other people-- a sissy of a BO and my cotton pickin' pre-med friends-- wouldn't help me out by keeping an eye on the mare for while I had to leave the barn to take a 3 hour final. IMO, the pre-med types missed an opportunity-- finding a vein/small garden hose on a horse, or lobbing a needle into the vast expanse of a horse's shoulder or butt is just about the easiest introduction to injections they are going to get.
    The armchair saddler
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    ^^

    Well.... I'm thinking banamine or a tranquilizer that you want to take effect, pronto. That's when I'd want some IV skillz.

    Injectable Banamine given orally works pretty darn quickly too.



  6. #46
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    Trub, here is what I might give IV based on my first aid kit:

    Ace or other tranqs in a broken leg and waiting for vet situation. I want horse calm NOW, not in 5 minutes.
    Banamine for a super-serious colic is better IV (though I always call my vet before I give the Banamine so he is in the loop, and I have paste too which has always worked for me).
    Dex if horse is in the midst a serious allergic reaction.

    All of these under vet's instruction, but I'm capable of giving them IV while I wait for him.



  7. #47
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    In cases of past emergencies, I've had my vets - different vets throughout my life - ask me what I had on hand med wise and if I could do an IV stick. It's been very helpful to be able to get the ball rolling, but only b/c I wasn't likely to make things worse since I was capable/competent to give the injection where it needed to be.

    I think, too, that if people are going to be giving injections, they need to be able to do them competently in the midst of distractions, under pressure, etc. The bad thing is that that ability usually comes with lots of practice and the situations that would provide that opportunity for the regular horse person are hopefully very few and far between.



  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    Injectable Banamine given orally works pretty darn quickly too.
    Good to know!
    The armchair saddler
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by fordtraktor View Post

    Ace or other tranqs in a broken leg and waiting for vet situation. I want horse calm NOW, not in 5 minutes.
    Banamine for a super-serious colic is better IV (though I always call my vet before I give the Banamine so he is in the loop, and I have paste too which has always worked for me).
    Ace can be given orally too, though I highly doubt ace given to a horse that is already freaking out will do much.

    I discussed the banamine with my vet and they feel that orally (so it absorbs via the mucus membranes, not squirting it in so they swallow it) works close enough to IV that there is no reason for the average person to worry about doing IV.


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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by fordtraktor View Post
    Trub, here is what I might give IV based on my first aid kit:

    Ace or other tranqs in a broken leg and waiting for vet situation. I want horse calm NOW, not in 5 minutes.
    Banamine for a super-serious colic is better IV (though I always call my vet before I give the Banamine so he is in the loop, and I have paste too which has always worked for me).
    Dex if horse is in the midst a serious allergic reaction.

    All of these under vet's instruction, but I'm capable of giving them IV while I wait for him.
    If a horse isn't calm already, how is an average horse owner going to give a moving target an IV injection?

    I have seen exactly one person hit a vein in a horse that was acting up. One minute she was facing me towards the horse's tail, tapping the air out of the syringe, the next she did a 180 and popped that needle in the vein like she was throwing darts in a bar.

    This person was a professional vet.



  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    Injectable Banamine given orally works pretty darn quickly too.
    But it tastes so bad, you will only have one shot at it. Horse will hate you forever after that. I know! (I had a then-needle-phobic horse that needed banamine daily and we had the bright idea to use the injectable given orally as it was cheaper than paste. Vet warned me horse would hate it and he was right!)



  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by horsepoor View Post
    But it tastes so bad, you will only have one shot at it. Horse will hate you forever after that. I know! (I had a then-needle-phobic horse that needed banamine daily and we had the bright idea to use the injectable given orally as it was cheaper than paste. Vet warned me horse would hate it and he was right!)
    Um, OK. I will have to tell my group this info. None have gotten head shy or hated me forever.


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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    Um, OK. I will have to tell my group this info. None have gotten head shy or hated me forever.
    My boy is speshul. He holds a grudge. 10 years later, he's finally forgiven my vet for administering his first intranasal vaccine. For years, if he heard that vet in the barn, he'd hide!



  14. #54
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    My vet taught me to do IM and IV injections. I even practiced the IV while she was there. (my horse was sedated - yes I know I'm mean! )

    That being said, I don't have cause to give an IV injection very often and would really only do it on my own horse in the case of Banamine/colic.

    Except in one case where the vet called ME because a neighbor's horse was colicking badly and they knew I had Banamine - they were about an hour away at the time.

    I doubt it is something they would have done with any other client, but I'm very hands on/experienced and they have known me for 20 years.

    They didn't actually ask me to administer it, just run over to the neighbor to loan some. But the neighbor was very upset and I ended up doing it anyway.

    Again, not something I would ever do unless there is an emergency! It does come in handy though.



  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    If a horse isn't calm already, how is an average horse owner going to give a moving target an IV injection?

    I have seen exactly one person hit a vein in a horse that was acting up. One minute she was facing me towards the horse's tail, tapping the air out of the syringe, the next she did a 180 and popped that needle in the vein like she was throwing darts in a bar.

    This person was a professional vet.
    In a truly spazzing horse, very little and I doubt I'd try for IV if I thought it might take me out. For a horse with a broken leg in shock, pretty good if you can get to it before the shock wears off and they start getting agitated. IME many badly injured animals are calm at first and deteriorate when the shock wears off and the pain starts hitting them. If you can keep the edge off it with IV ace and banamine at your vet's direction, why wouldn't you? I think it's crazy to have responsibility for horses and not know basic first aid techniques, regardless of how often you use them. Hopefully never. Anyway, trub was asking for examples and I gave her some common ones. Of those, I think dex is the most likely.



  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by fordtraktor View Post
    If you can keep the edge off it with IV ace and banamine at your vet's direction, why wouldn't you? I think it's crazy to have responsibility for horses and not know basic first aid techniques.
    Agreed.

    Additionally, you can practice giving IV shots without actually injecting anything, like PaintPony mentions.



  17. #57
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    I can do both IV and IM injections. (And SubQ, too.) I took the time to learn. I've never had to to an IV injection, but had done quite a few IM.

    (I actually learned on cows first, then horses. Nothing like going to an agricultural collage!)
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by kookicat View Post
    I can do both IV and IM injections. (And SubQ, too.) I took the time to learn. I've never had to to an IV injection, but had done quite a few IM.

    (I actually learned on cows first, then horses. Nothing like going to an agricultural collage!)
    I actually learned how to do subq injections on a cat. That was... fun.


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  19. #59
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    Back in the day the standard script for an injury (laceration type etc ) was am IM shot of penicillin twice a day for 10 days. There was no vet in the area (countryside of Nebraska) that would even consider coming out twice a day for that length of time. Every horse owner or at least someone on the premises, had to know how to safely do IM injections. The vet showed you how on day one and left you with a giant bottle of penicillin and a bunch of needles (big ones cause the penicillin was thick) and syringes. You just got good at it....I will still do IM shots if needed but I never have done IV and don't plan to learn how.


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  20. #60
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    I know how to do both, IV and IM. I guess being a nurse has its perks. My 3yo TB managed to compound fracture his front leg when turned out a couple of years ago and the vet was at least 1 hour away. It was a catastrophic injury with no hope for any quality of life. I gave him a hefty dose of IV Ace while I waited for the vet. He was trying to walk and it was horrendous to watch. We keep IV drugs at the barn and there are a couple of us who can give in an emergency. No issues with IM, I give all my cats and dogs their annual vaccines as well as the horses. They stand better than most people!



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