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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by chunky munky View Post
    The point was to diferentiate this thread from one about injecting hocks and ankles, morons. What would you like the title to be? Frankly, there are 30-50 cc dose syringes that are frequently used orally.
    LOL, morons, really? The comments about the title were made in a joking manner, but if you want to be a jerkface about it:
    1. Hocks and ankles are also injected using syringes, genius;
    2. Medications given orally are not "injecting a horse", even if you use a syringe to deliver the medication.


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  2. #22
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    Whew chunky munky hope you weren't referring to me as a moron.

    I think it's pretty unnecessary for horse owners to give IV injections in general. I mean, I get why people learn, but I don't think anyone should be routinely injecting like that. If you need to sedate, do it IM. It only takes like 30 min!
    Charlie Brown (1994 bay TB X gelding)
    White Star (2004 grey TB gelding)

    Mystical Moment, 1977-2010.


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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelico View Post
    At shows, I wish that all injections were required to be given by a licensed veterinarian, and recorded and reported to the show management. Anyone found injecting a horse themselves should be DQed and suspended.
    It's just not practical though. If I have a horse who's a bit colicky, you better believe I'm going to give them some banamine ASAP, because who knows what the vet might be tied up with.

    I do think meds can and should be better regulated; I just don't think that's the way to do so. I've ridden with and worked for some trainers with some pretty hefty med boxes...

    ETA: I do think every horse person acting in the capacity of a barn owner/manager/trainer should know how to inject both IM and IV, without exception. (Heck, I ride twice a week now and I can do both.)



  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Ridge View Post
    It's just not practical though. If I have a horse who's a bit colicky, you better believe I'm going to give them some banamine ASAP, because who knows what the vet might be tied up with.

    I do think meds can and should be better regulated; I just don't think that's the way to do so. I've ridden with and worked for some trainers with some pretty hefty med boxes...

    ETA: I do think every horse person acting in the capacity of a barn owner/manager/trainer should know how to inject both IM and IV, without exception. (Heck, I ride twice a week now and I can do both.)
    I said at shows. Don't all rated shows have a vet on the grounds?

    "Pat the horse; kick yourself" - Carl Hester


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  5. #25
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    Meh, I'm an amateur and I'll give a horse I own IM or IV injections. I won't inject bute, though. And I won't inject someone else's horse unless it's a life-and-death thing and the HO wants me to do it with full disclosure of just how risky and how illegal it is. I'd much rather tell them how to do it and avoid all that.

    And man, I wish I could get good enough to do intraarticular injections. That's never going to happen but it would save HOs some money (until you screw it up and then you get to lose a lot of money).
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelico View Post
    I said at shows. Don't all rated shows have a vet on the grounds?
    Sometimes on the grounds, sometimes they are on call... But you obviously didn't read my post. Even at a show, if my horse is colicking, I'm not going to call the vet and risk waiting (either for them to drive over OR finish what they're doing on the grounds) while my horse's conditions gets worse.


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  7. #27
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    Apr. 21, 2009
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    I agree. If I'm at an away show and my horse colics, I would talk with my vet and if they suggested it needed banamine, I would not hesitate to give it. Sometimes a vet has other appointments and emergencies that he has to deal with and might take an hour or more to get to your stalls. However, I would not show that horse that day, either.



  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Ridge View Post
    Sometimes on the grounds, sometimes they are on call... But you obviously didn't read my post. Even at a show, if my horse is colicking, I'm not going to call the vet and risk waiting (either for them to drive over OR finish what they're doing on the grounds) while my horse's conditions gets worse.
    No I did read your post, it just looked like you hadn't read mine. I didn't know if you meant at a show or in general. Anyways, that obviously would need to be fixed if a rule like that was ever put in place. If by some act of god the USEF ever took the intitiative and required all medications be administered by a vet, the show should have one on the grounds or in very close proximity at all times.

    I figure if a horse is colicking severly the vet could make it across the barn area in well under an hour. Like ponytrnr said, there is no way you'd be competing on a horse that was in that much pain.

    "Pat the horse; kick yourself" - Carl Hester


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  9. #29
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    I do my own injections at home. I, too, only inject someone else's horses if it is life and death. I have no issue with having a vet inject my horses at a show, if needed.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies


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  10. #30
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    If we have a horse in our barn that needs regular IV injections (ie: for Lymes), we ask the vet to put in a catheter and we use a neck cover to 'protect' it. That's the only way we're comfortable doing IV. IM is fine, oral is fine, but we're just not comfortable doing IV anything even though our vet has shown us. Fortunately, we don't need to use syringes often. Hope it stays that way.



  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ponytrnr117 View Post
    Whoever is at the end of the needle needs some sort of training. My own mother owned my barn when I was growing up. She bred ponies and started me out in my riding career. She was not comfortable giving IV injections, even though she was shown by a vet many times. She used her own best judgement as to what she was comfortable administering. She will give IM injections IF ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY and is fine giving pastes and other oral meds. This is her choice based on her own comfort level. She was more than a pony mom, but she was not a big named trainer or manager of a huge farm. I think it all comes down to people using their darned brains :-)
    This & Ponytrnr117's other post. Sticking a horse - regardless of IM, IV, SQ - is not something a person should do if they aren't TRAINED & CONFIDENT about what they are doing.

    When I was 14 yrs old (WAY back in the day), I watched a very novice horse owner (who thought they knew what they were doing in all things horsey - she had read some books about horses) who boarded where I was riding give her horse an injection in its rump. The mare was pretty fractious & tense; Novice Nightmare broke the needle off in the mare's rump...then had to call the vet.

    I've known people who considered themselves qualified to give IM injections but couldn't show you where the bony structures were in the neck. Dangerous.

    Then you get to the whole business of the drugs themselves. Many of us have seen the aftermath of idiots on the end of a syringe full of "I thought it would be okay to give this." There are drugs horses CANNOT have either IM or IV. For those drugs that must be given slowly and cause pain if they escape the vein, my personal preference is to place an IV catheter and then do the injection...something my vet knows I'm competent do...makes me feel better about the whole thing regardless of how I've seen So & So administer the slow meds.

    I know an unwanted arterial stick can happen, what I don't understand is how someone who is competent to be giving IV injections cannot tell the difference. It's night and day. And if for a nano-second I wasn't 110% certain where my needle was, I'd stop right where I was, carefully remove the needle and probably get another set of qualified hands/eyes on the scene unless it was an emergency situation (banamine/colic) and then I'd regroup, refocus and move to the other side or another site.

    "I think it all comes down to people using their darned brains :-)" <<<<<< This! AND not allowing other things to distract and/or cloud one's judgement.


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  12. #32
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    FWIW, you don't need to inject a horse to give it Banamine. You can dose Banamine orally (either with the concentrated injectable kind or the paste). I give Banamine sometimes but don't need to do IV shots (which I am trained/capable of doing, but just hate to give because I don't have the experience I would like).


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  13. #33
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    I am a big advocate for horse owners being taught how to correctly administer injections, both IM and IV. It took me a long time to get over my phobia of doing it (I would get weak in the knees and light headed), but I am glad I did, as I've been able to jump on top of some nasty colics and chokes by being able to get drugs on board while waiting for a vet. I've also saved myself and employers and clients some money by being able to administer daily drugs instead of having the vet out to do it (I think busy vets do appreciate having competent horse owners and BMs to do this stuff, too. But I think less busy or possibly swindling type vets LOVE helpless clients. Those $35 farm calls for 30 seconds worth of Legend injections are great!!).

    Yes, you can give a lot of these things orally, but a lot of these things you can't. I rather be competent and prepared than waiting around with a miserable horse when the vet's an hour away.



  14. #34
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    "Those $35 farm calls for 30 seconds worth of Legend injections are great!!)."

    $75 and I'm less than 2 miles from the vet's office. They usually cut be a big break but, yeah, it's motivation to learn how to do it!



  15. #35
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    My vet taught me to give an IM shot competently so that I can give Adequan. I don't think I'm ready to give an IV shot and I don't particularly want to learn (I'm not good with needles.) I think it's a valuable and potentially life-saving skill and something that anyone who runs a barn ought to know how to do in case of emergency. If I were going to bring a horse home to my backyard, I would darn well learn. Kicking and screaming and maybe having a panic attack and falling down, but I'd learn.
    "I'm not always sarcastic. Sometimes I'm asleep."
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by yellowbritches View Post
    I am a big advocate for horse owners being taught how to correctly administer injections, both IM and IV. It took me a long time to get over my phobia of doing it (I would get weak in the knees and light headed), but I am glad I did, as I've been able to jump on top of some nasty colics and chokes by being able to get drugs on board while waiting for a vet. I've also saved myself and employers and clients some money by being able to administer daily drugs instead of having the vet out to do it (I think busy vets do appreciate having competent horse owners and BMs to do this stuff, too. But I think less busy or possibly swindling type vets LOVE helpless clients. Those $35 farm calls for 30 seconds worth of Legend injections are great!!).

    Yes, you can give a lot of these things orally, but a lot of these things you can't. I rather be competent and prepared than waiting around with a miserable horse when the vet's an hour away.

    I agree with all this (and give shots myself), but just wanted to point out the banamine thing because a "no shots at horse shows" rule would not condemn a horse to waiting an hour with nothing in a colic situation. There are usually other options for injections -- for example, our heavey horse used to need Dex, but we could have given him clenbuterol pills squished up and squirted in his mouth in an emergency event while waiting for the vet, etc. (just as good if not better). There's often more than one way to get things done medicinally so I'm skeptical of a "sky is falling" argument re: shots at shows.



  17. #37
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    This thread brings up a good point. I do all of my own IV and IM injections for both my own horses and for client horses. It isn't practical for me to call the vet every time a horse needs an injectable medication. I have broodmares and layups who sometimes need IM or IV injections every day or twice a day. Client horses receive injectable medications only as directed by the farm vet. My DH and I also raise livestock and along with our workers do virtually all of the veterinary care of our livestock. To me, it isn't the least bit concerning that an experienced, trained, and responsible person should provide some of the hands on veterinary care of their animals under the direction of or in consultation with their veterinarian, including giving IV and IM medications.

    What is dangerous and irresponsible is having untrained grooms and/or family members who don't really know much about horses giving injections of medications without knowing a thing about technique or the pharmacology of what they are injecting, or how to handle a complication. Some drugs need to be injected slowly. Some drugs can cause tissue damage if some of the medication is injected outside the vein. Mystery substances could have surprise side effects. Any horse could have an anaphylactic (allergic) reaction to a drug being injected and any drug could be accidentally injected intra-arterially.

    Much worse than having people without training/experience/knowledge giving IV/IM medications is having those same people DECIDE what medications to give. Especially when those drugs fall into the category of non-testable or "mystery" medications that lack therapeutic purpose and have not been tested in horses. In any case, when I see a healthy young show horses on a crazy list of every "legal" injectable medication possible I cringe because no vet came up with that--at least no vet with the horse's best interest at heart.


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  18. #38
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    I know how to give IM injections. Have never learned how to do IV and I have no interest in knowing. If it has to go in IV I will be calling the vet.



  19. #39
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    I can do IM and IV. I was taught to do both and my horse gets IM injections once a week. To the OP why are you being such a jerk to everyone on the thread. Honestly get over yourself and grow up, most of us are adults here and we don't need grade sschool insults thrown at us.
    I am on my phone 90% of the time. Please ignore typos, misplaced lower case letters, and the random word butchered by autocowreck.



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  20. #40
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    I think that one person at the barn...owner/manager should be competent to give both. I was at a large boarding facility and in a freak accident a horse galloping across the field fell and broke his leg. It was literally broken in half and dangling. It was obvious that he wasn't going to make it and instead of him standing in pain for the hour for the vet to give there our barn manager was able to give him strong doses of pain meds and tranqualizers to make him comfortable. I personally give my horse IM injections but I have been shown many times and am very careful about it. I don't feel comfortable giving IV injections but I like to know that someone at my barn is capable in case there is a situation my horse needed drugs asap not oral ones that take 20 minutes to work.



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