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  1. #61
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    Carasmom, that poor horse! Sounds devastating.

    Speaking of IM injections, I give my dog Adequan shots all the time, but need to start giving them to my horse as well. Where's the safest place?
    A helmet saved my life.

    2014 goal: learn to ride like TheHorseProblem, er, a barn rat!



  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Carasmom, that poor horse! Sounds devastating.

    Speaking of IM injections, I give my dog Adequan shots all the time, but need to start giving them to my horse as well. Where's the safest place?
    I was taught to do IM on the neck, in front of the shoulder.



  3. #63
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    Mar. 19, 2006
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    I haven't paid much attention to this thread since the time i started it. But its always fun to come back after the holier than thou's have abandoned it for some other train wreck ;-) I think there are some interesting thoughts here about what the layman should be trained to do for the care of their horses. Trainers are layman. Interesting thoughts about under the tongue administration, etc. What do you think your vet should teach you? If you are a nurse, should a vet feel confident to teach you how to administer an IV for an emergency situation? Is that any different than being a layman? What drugs does your vet advise to have on hand for emergencies? And have they properly taught you how to administer? Do you think that a vetshould be able to sell a vial of a drug to a layman(trainer) and it should be legal fro that layman to resell that drug to you at a retail rate? I have no opinion here, just some interesting debatable thoughts. Carry on.
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  4. #64
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Ridge View Post
    I actually learned how to do subq injections on a cat. That was... fun.
    IMO, cats were designed for subq injections. It don't get much easier. And that's true because even a cat with a bad mind can be wrestled to the ground.

    Horses, too, were designed for IV injections-- more or less. Much easier than finding a vein on a person. Take note, wannabe junkies. The only problem with horses is the sucker who raises his head so as to roll the vein into his neck where you can't get a good shot without some poking around. Then their worst fears are confirmed, then they behave badly in round 2, then their worst fears are confirmed again.... and so it goes.... with an animal possessing a brain the size of an orange.
    The armchair saddler
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  5. #65
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    Dec. 5, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finzean View Post
    I think, too, that if people are going to be giving injections, they need to be able to do them competently in the midst of distractions, under pressure, etc. The bad thing is that that ability usually comes with lots of practice and the situations that would provide that opportunity for the regular horse person are hopefully very few and far between.
    You mean like giving IV banamine and detomidine practically AT THE TROT to a colicy horse that won't stay up in your tall boots and shadbelly when you've been home from WIHS long enough to unload your own horse and load sick horse and get it to the clinic asap? Then yes, I agree. And yes, I've actually done that.
    Quote Originally Posted by EquineImagined View Post
    My subconscious is a wretched insufferable beotch.


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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    Ace can be given orally too, though I highly doubt ace given to a horse that is already freaking out will do much.

    I discussed the banamine with my vet and they feel that orally (so it absorbs via the mucus membranes, not squirting it in so they swallow it) works close enough to IV that there is no reason for the average person to worry about doing IV.
    That is nonsense to equate the speed with which an IV drug gets into the system with that of a drug given orally. IV drugs begin to work almost immediately, while oral doses take about 30 minutes, give or take. That is not even a close match, and in an emergency, 30 minutes is WAY too long.
    Laurie
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  7. #67
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    Oct. 1, 2011
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    Mid-MO
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    Quote Originally Posted by lauriep View Post
    That is nonsense to equate the speed with which an IV drug gets into the system with that of a drug given orally. IV drugs begin to work almost immediately, while oral doses take about 30 minutes, give or take. That is not even a close match, and in an emergency, 30 minutes is WAY too long.
    No argument that IV administration = most rapid effect. However, medications absorbed through the mucous membranes ("lining") of the mouth take effect much more quickly than those that are swallowed and absorbed from the digestive tract. Medications administered into the mouth (for example, under the tongue or between the gums and cheek) BUT NOT SWALLOWED are absorbed directly into the bloodstream via the numerous capillaries that lie just beneath the mucous membranes. Medications that are swallowed must be absorbed from the stomach and/or other parts of the digestive tract, into the portal circulation (which goes to the liver), then out to the systemic circulation (which goes to the rest of the body)--a process that takes much longer.


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  8. #68
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    I'm lucky in that Dad is a vet, so taught me to do IM/IV/SC injections right off the bat. I work as an RN in CCU, so keep on top of those skills as well - if I can get a vein in a septic little old lady, the horsey garden hose isn't an issue.

    What I do like about administering medications by injection is that you know the horse (or dog, cat, whatever) is receiving the entire dose as intended if your technique is good. I always seems to end up wearing a lot of the dose if I give it orally, and it can be upsetting for the animal as well. We've got one cat that is just impossible to pill - he's as sweet as pie until you try to open his mouth, then he turns into a demon creature, even if swaddled in towels and being held down in a kitty fajita. He's the only cat Dad has been unable to pill in his entire career, but is great for injections. Guess which all involved prefer.


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  9. #69
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    Feb. 3, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by fordtraktor View Post
    FWIW, you don't need to inject a horse to give it Banamine. You can dose Banamine orally (either with the concentrated injectable kind or the paste). I give Banamine sometimes but don't need to do IV shots (which I am trained/capable of doing, but just hate to give because I don't have the experience I would like).

    Yes, but in the case of a severe colic, it would take the horse a lot longer to receive the desired effect of oral Banamine than it would an IV dose.



  10. #70
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    I've only ever injected a horse under the direction of a vet. I can inject IM just fine and used to do IV (after the vet walking me through it) but haven't in quite some time. They're good skills to have in an emergency IMO since the vet cannot always be there quickly. It's always a good idea to have an emergency kit on hand that contains certain things such as sedatives, pain relievers, etc. The one thing I absolutely will not inject IM is Banamine. If you can't do IV, keep some to administer orally.



  11. #71
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    Oct. 1, 2002
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    I'm a registered vet tech, and can place an IV catheter in a dehydrated 5-week old kitten, so I'm perfectly comfortable with doing my own IV injections. The thing that bothers me about laypeople doing their own isn't so much their technical proficiency as much as what's in the syringe.

    Without looking it up on the web (or having a veterinary background) can you tell me what not-uncommon condition is a contraindication for using detomadine (Dormosedan)?
    Life would be infinitely better if pinatas suddenly appeared throughout the day.


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  12. #72
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    Nov. 30, 2005
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    I am not a vet, but I have been doing IV, IM, and SQ injections for decades under the direction of excellent vets. Having dealt with some young and inexperienced vets and their occasional "mistakes", I don't buy the argument that having a vet do all injections guarantees the safest outcome for the horse.

    And yes SMS, I not only know the risks of detomidine, as my vet has me keep it on hand for use under her direction, I know how to spell it.

    As owners, most of us are "laymen", but many have years of experience caring for numerous horses and are surprisingly knowledgeable and capable of doing so.

    As for what's in the syringe.... I believe it was a licensed vet who came up with Carolina Gold.


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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckawayfarm View Post
    And yes SMS, I not only know the risks of detomidine, as my vet has me keep it on hand for use under her direction, I know how to spell it.
    Haha tuckawayfarm you beat me to it!

    SMS, detomidine can raise the body temperature and shouldn't be used in febrile horses or in horses with known heart or respiratory problems because it can also cause an increase in blood pressure. It also (along with most sedatives) shouldn't be used in horses with liver/kidney function abnormalities. And no, I didn't look it up. Didn't need to because my vets have properly educated me in the risks and proper administration of each and every drug in my cabinet.

    To what condition were you referring? Maybe we'll all learn something new.
    Quote Originally Posted by EquineImagined View Post
    My subconscious is a wretched insufferable beotch.



  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckawayfarm View Post
    And yes SMS, I not only know the risks of detomidine, as my vet has me keep it on hand for use under her direction, I know how to spell it.
    Ah, touche! Yes, I always mix up the i and the a for detomIdine. I'm normally a good speller, but always want to spell Dormosedan as Dermosedan


    As for what's in the syringe.... I believe it was a licensed vet who came up with Carolina Gold.
    True 'nuff, albeit a very nefarious vet. I think you've got good and bad in every industry, and that one's definitely a "bad.".

    I was referring to pre-existing SA or AV heart block. Detomidine can cause an initial increase in BP and then a drop in heart rate and heart block, so you definitely don't want to give it to a horse who already has heart block. A good vet will auscult and, if hearing abnormalities, jog the horse a little to see if it resolves.

    I honestly believe that you (tuckaway and Herbie) are unusual. I've been in some barns where drugs like detomidine are given out like candy, and the person administering the drug has no idea about the other effects it can have.

    I boarded for three short weeks in a barn that gave my horse detomidine for shoeing, even though I had left a note with my cell phone and instructions to call me when the farrier arrived (farrier also had instructions to call me when he was on his way, so that I could leave work and come hold for him). Neither called, the horse acted up a little, and then I found out later from the farrier that they had sedated her without my authorization (she did, in fact, have heart block, which I knew, but I didn't anticipate anyone sedating her without checking with me first or it being an emergency situation). Horse got moved the next day, and they still charged me for the injection.

    Can a lay-person give injections proficiently? Absolutely. Can a vet or tech screw up? Sure. But I think there are plenty of lay-people out there giving injections without the benefit of that knowledge, and that's what scares me.

    Even as an RVT, I only inject my own horses (and my very best friend's, who is an IV therapy nurse and who understands the potential risks). Things can happen, even when you do everything right, and I don't want that kind of liability.
    Life would be infinitely better if pinatas suddenly appeared throughout the day.



  15. #75
    Join Date
    Nov. 26, 2006
    Location
    Minnesota
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    709

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    This is not a syringe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_injector

    Although I'm not sure I've ever seen a horse vet use one, I don't know why you couldn't.



  16. #76
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    Apr. 6, 2006
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    I can certainly confirm that Herbie19 is unusual!

    If she had her own xray machine she could probably go in to business - despite the fact that she didn't go to vet school!



  17. #77
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    Oct. 25, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by chunky munky View Post
    I haven't paid much attention to this thread since the time i started it. But its always fun to come back after the holier than thou's have abandoned it for some other train wreck ;-) I think there are some interesting thoughts here about what the layman should be trained to do for the care of their horses. Trainers are layman. Interesting thoughts about under the tongue administration, etc. What do you think your vet should teach you? If you are a nurse, should a vet feel confident to teach you how to administer an IV for an emergency situation? Is that any different than being a layman? What drugs does your vet advise to have on hand for emergencies? And have they properly taught you how to administer? Do you think that a vetshould be able to sell a vial of a drug to a layman(trainer) and it should be legal fro that layman to resell that drug to you at a retail rate? I have no opinion here, just some interesting debatable thoughts. Carry on.
    My vet REQUIRES that for a barn our size, I'm competent and confident doing IM, Sub-Q, and IV as needed. They haven't the time or inclination to drive an hour one-way to do things like inject Adequan or Legend. We also have a horse who takes sub-cutaneous allergy shots on a regular basis.

    About 10 years ago my vet found out I hadn't done IV, and I told him not having done dissections, I was a little nervous about maybe hitting the carotid. He said, "OK, let's fix that!" and not only gave me the requisite anatomy lesson, but provided me with a bag of short needles he assured me were hard to make that mistake with. He also let me practice a bunch under his supervision and now it's a non-problem.

    They make sure I'm well supplied with both paste and IV Bute, Banamine, several tranqs. appropriate for handling a severe colic or choke, Ace, and have also shared with me the trick for using the IV Banamine solution orally instead.
    What this means is I can hold my own with just about any emergency for the hour or two it might take them to get down here; and we've also avoided many farm calls altogether by them telling me what to do on the phone.

    This is pretty much the standard they expect from professionals.



  18. #78
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    May. 30, 2006
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    Perhaps I’m misunderstanding but a number of posts from allegedly knowledgeable people appear to be implying banamine prevents a colic episode from getting worse and needs to be given IV to save time and prevent escalation. Huh?

    The only thing Banamine does is relieve pain. It does nothing to relieve a torsion, a severe impaction or a protrusion/hernia - all of which require surgery to resolve. In fact, administering Banamine can delay proper diagnosis of the more serious types of colic until it’s too late. It’s no wonder colic is still the leading killer of horses.

    Nowadays, most vets want basic vital signs checked, including hydration status, BEFORE administering Banamine by any route. How many here are aware giving Banamine to a dehydrated horse can easily result in kidney failure?

    Also, I believe the OP was ranting about owners who know nothing about pharmacology, microbiology and proper technique. I don’t believe she was referring to licensed vet techs and other who have received proper training. There is even a recent post from someone considering IM meds but had no idea where to stick the needle?


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  19. #79
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    Sep. 20, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcloisonne View Post
    Perhaps I’m misunderstanding but a number of posts from allegedly knowledgeable people appear to be implying banamine prevents a colic episode from getting worse and needs to be given IV to save time and prevent escalation. Huh?
    If your horse is throwing himself to the ground and thrashing in pain, yes, Banamine is necessary to prevent escalation.

    The only thing Banamine does is relieve pain. It does nothing to relieve a torsion, a severe impaction or a protrusion/hernia - all of which require surgery to resolve.
    Very true, but administration of Banamine can get a thrashing horse to stand quietly. And pain relief can lessen muscle contractions which may be the cause of the colic.

    Nowadays, most vets want basic vital signs checked, including hydration status, BEFORE administering Banamine by any route.
    Isn't this standard protocol? Raise your hand if you're skipping the basics and jumping straight to a needle...

    How many here are aware giving Banamine to a dehydrated horse can easily result in kidney failure?
    As can all NSAIDs.

    I think it's pretty stupid to assume that someone knowledgable enough to give an IV stick isn't going to be bothered with the details of the meds they're giving... It isn't like I can just drive down to WalMart and pick up a bottle of injectable Banamine.

    The vets we use both assumed when they met me that I could give IV and IM injections. In the event of emergency, they sometimes want me to get drugs on board before they can get here.

    I think the ability to give injections is hugely important for horse owners to have. If your vet disagrees, well, I guess that's their business...
    "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
    -George Morris


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