Oh the stench is overwhelming
Not dissing the mare owners but really? Not pursue fraud, force repay of your fees and get ANOTHER stallion ????? God knows, there are many - urp - talented stallions to choose from !
Seriously, get some knowledge about business law. If an agent of the original contractor (agent=Ashland) tries to fulfill the contract by offering what was paid for (the breeding) then demanding a refund is not legally an option unless it was an option in the original contract. It isn't a fraud if the person is offered what they paid for and refuses it. So if they don't take Ashland's offer, they no longer have a claim against Jill because they are choosing to negate their breeding contract. While "making Jill pay" is a nice emotionally appealing idea, it isn't a valid legal option unless the person is unable to obtain fulfillment of the contract.
Last edited by Spectrum; Mar. 17, 2013 at 12:35 AM.
Passion is a funny thing and sometimes I find it can blurr ones good sense and reason. It is interesting that the first thing that 3dogs mentions is the spelling errors in the last post....a personal attack with absolutely nothing to do with the issues at hand. Focus people....horses cost money long before any of this comes to the table. They cost to buy..cost to feed...cost to breed...vet, farrier......these mare owners have the right to decide to retrieve what is owed to them without the extra cost of legal fees. So don't judge, it sounds to me that the stallions were two of the lucky ones that landed in a good place. Let's pray the other horse do as well and if we can some how help them in the intrim let's do it.
to the OP: surely you can't be irritated with those who read your first post as if it was written by a USC cheerleader ? The rah-rah effect was a bit unusal considering the circumstances.
Congratulations on getting your contract fulfilled. I sincerely hope it all works out for you and you have a gorgeous and healthy foal.
^THIS. I do think that anyone who searches for info on those stallions needs to know who owns them, so that they can make an educated decision as to whether they want their money to support Jill Burnell.
On the plus side, all monies received will be documented by Ashland vs. Jill Burnell's accounting; it's a shame the authorities can't just have the net income frozen or put in escrow versus sending Jill Burnell a check.
I am glad the stallions are safe, and the defrauded mare owners will now be getting a product from a professional lab versus ... the Burnell "lab"
Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing
Spectrum - I don't think anyone is suggesting that those with an outstanding breeding to Redwine or Aloha should be say no to Ashlands offer. But the OPs post seemed to be promoting the stallions and future breedings. This is what annoys others, that NEW breeders will still be funding Jill Burnell.
Let me preface this by saying I am in full agreement that Jill Burnell was a criminal and mistreated/abused horses, defrauded people, etc. I'm not supporter, have never bred to one of her stallions, and have ZERO skin in the game other than as a bystander.
But.....Wow. Some of the comments on this thread about people who have had unfulfilled breedings blow my mind from multiple standpoints. One, the idea that instead of people getting what they paid for, people should say, "NO, I don't want it now because the wrong person is giving it to me!" is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. If there is an arrangement where they can get the breeding THEY PAID FOR, they should take it! If JB herself was providing it at the time they paid for it, they would have been paying collection fees, booking fees, whatever. So now you're saying that INSTEAD of taking what they ALREADY PAID FOR they should sue JB?!
Well, unfortunately business law doesn't work that way. If you are offered what you paid for under the terms you paid for it, and don't accept it, you can't recover damages BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T BEEN DAMAGED. So if Ashland is serving as JB's agent to fulfill those contracts you can't sue JB for noncompliance because her agent is actually attempting to fulfill the contract on her behalf.
So basically you're saying that if someone ALREADY PAID JB for the breeding, they should be a martyr for the cause and not accept what they are owed? I'm sorry, but that's one of the most asinine things I've ever read on this board. And believe me, I've read some pretty asinine things on this board!!!
The OP should probably have posted, "Glad to have the stallions in the hands of people who will do right by mare owners and glad they are fulfilling past obligations, and THANK YOU."
The idea that JB should never benefit from those stallions, while heartfelt, is totally not realistic. Those stallions had two potential ends- starving or otherwise dying under Jill's eventual lack of care due to lack of funds or else going to better hands. They were valuable stallions, so the only way they were going to end up somewhere better is if someone paid for them, unless of course they were starving or damaged/injured so badly they no longer had any value. Do you really wish that was what happened to those stallions instead of JB getting money in her pocket? Seriously, you think the end would have justified the means?
Currently they are in a situation with good care and strong potential for never going back to JB. Do we wish Ashland already owned them? Yes. But we take what we can get.
If mare owners want to breed to them, that's another ball of wax, but at some point you need to just accept the realities of the situation and give thanks for the small blessings.
Clearly JB is an addict and will just keep hoarding horses. She has demonstrated she will connive in any way she wishes to get her hands on mares, including lying to the sellers or having others get mares on her behalf. Nothing we can do about that but keep educating people!
In the meantime, we also need to accept that people who have losses are going to accept being compensated for those losses. People who have the opportunity to buy those stallions are going to try to market them so they can afford to buy them. And in order to get them permanently out of JB's hands, JB is going to want money for them. If you favor the stallions returning to JB, by all means, keep spewing pointless vitriol. But at least don't be stupid about the laws involved, and try to get a grip on reality for cripes sake!
This may sound mean but I really hope this is what happens. I hate for any farm to lose out but the message should be LOUD and CLEAR to all. These stallions already have enough foals on the ground.
Originally Posted by Blume Farm
I know no one has the answer to this, but...
What if Ashland only gets the responsibility of fulfilling past stud fees that were never fulfilled? They have to do all the work and get no compensation? Other than a collection fee? Wonder if JB is going to give them at least part of the stud fees of already paid mare owners?
It would be a bummer for Ashland if most of their breedings this year are just fulfilling past breedings....from their perspective.
I am wondering how long it will be before we hear that Ashland is having difficulties with her. Seems darned near everyone that ever worked or partnered with her in the past has ended up either in a financial dispute with her, or has otherwise been profoundly let down by her. Even some of her former "friends" got used and abused in one way or another.
This is my tiff with Ashland honoring these old contracts that Jill never fufilled:
It is a known fact that JB took breeding fees from customers who signed breeding contracts and never sent them the product they paid for in order to breed their mares. Many of these customers have gone several years and they are still out of their money. Fast forward to now: Jill is heavily involved in an ever-developing legal battle with MHS and California over her abuse to the horses in her care.
While the MHS is putting together a case; Jill "leases" both Redwine and Aloha (who,last I knew had a lien on him) to Ashland Farms in Canada for the unforeseeable future. In all technicality; both stallions are still owned by Jill but their breeding, care, etc is fully managed and cared for by Ashland Farm. Jill is still the legal "owner" and is collecting some of the breeding fees collected by Ashland from the breedings of these stallions. Ashland Farm has agreed to honor any outstanding contract to either stallion that was never filled.
What I am trying to understand is HOW other's believe Jill will be exempt from charges for FRAUD for taking customer funds and not sending them what they paid for. Yes, Ashland is honoring contracts that were never filled BUT Ashland is completing the action, not Jill herself who was responsible for the funds collected however many years ago when the contract was signed. Ashland has paid Mrs. Burnell lease fees to take over management of the stallions for their own personal business motive for the year.
Honoring the contract that Jill fraudulently avoided does not excuse JB from the crime. She still committed the crime; despite the lessor of her stallions honoring old contracts. Jill herself has not honored the contract nor has she refunded the money to the customers she stole money from. JB has still committed the crime and now she's collecting stud fees from the stallions in Canada because she still owns them.
A good many stallion owners across North America donated breedings to the auction to help Jill's animals and people taking legal action, but they also generously offered to cover the unfulfilled contracts to the GFF stallions. WHY didn't mare owners take them up on that? The stallions that were offered are phenomenal! Much nicer than either Redwine or/and especially Aloha.
No offense to the owners who have foals by the two here, there's really only a handful of their get (combined) that I'm impressed with. The rest are just meh. MY OPINION. Which is a shame because Redwine is actually nice horse (I'm just not overly wowed by the majority of his get).
Not even touching the aforementioned lien on Aloha from the stallion test (where, IIRC, he scored pitifully low) that makes hia piece of the whole deal....questionable.
But here is my biggest thought on all of this: So many keep saying "oh, it's great! These horses are away from Jill and she won't profit!" Really? She is still listed as the owner, therefore she will still be able to take some credit for the foals produced. She can't necessarily take credit as the breeder, but she can still list these foals under her stallions and gain publicity for them. Anything put on the ground by these stallions will benefit her "program" and "business" because she can then advertise along the lines of "see what my stallions produce?? Breed YOUR mare to them, too!"
And she has more mares??
"IT'S NOT THE MOUNTAIN WE CONQUER, BUT OURSELVES." SIR EDMUND HILLARYMember of the "Someone Special To Me Serves In The Military" Clique
Just my inconsequential $.02 here, but if MOs would stop supporting Jill, either directly or through some middleman (ie Ashland), then at some point those boys will stop being money makers for her (which is allegedly the reason she's not selling) and she WILL sell them to someone who will 1) take good care of them and 2) cut ties between Jill and the stallions.
At some point ethics and morals have to come in to play - there are as nice, and nicer stallions out there, these are NOT the only 2 stallions any mare could only possibly be bred to.
______________________________ The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET
Wow. This is rediculous. And now we see how the s**t pile gets deeper when people throw out their little "ideas" on how business is being done. Maybe Ashland has no plea from JB and has taken these stallions from a HORRBLE HOME due to their popularity with potential clients? Maybe Ashland is making a wise and honorable business decision by covering peoples lost breedings, WHEN THEY HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO DO SO? I am glad to see those boys here, I will be glad when my mare is confirmed in foal, i will be glad when a healthy foal is born, and I WILL BE EXSTATIC TO WATCH THAT FOAL SUCCEED. Dont worry about collection fees or no collection fees. Thats between Ashland and their clients. I would love to see JB lose Redwine, just like everyone else. Point of fact is, we can praise the stallions all we like. What we are NOT praising is JILL BURNELL. Stop judging and accusing potential clients of "animal Abuse" or lining JBs pockets. GUESS WHAT EVERYONE..SADLY JB OWNS REDWINE SO SHE WILL BE GETTING A CHUNK OF CASH IF SOMEONE BUYS HIM. ITS GOING TO HER ONE WAY OR ANOTHER..I can only PRAY that she uses the money wisely to right her wrongs and get the hell outta Dodge (without horses).
well if you think that purchasing new mares in this situation is a good idea I think your prayer about her using the money wisely is already wasted. (that was posted by ironspring and very disheartening to hear)
I like both stallions and if they were owned by someone else would definitely use them. But I am not prepared to look at another picture of a starving mare and think that my funds had a part in that.
You are right, she will get a chunk of $$ if she sells the stallions, but if you look at past behavior I really don't think you have to worry about her keeping it long.
ps. yes I know, you are simply using unfulfilled breeding contracts, and I personally don't see an issue with that. I am referring to the appearance of soliciting new clients for the boys while ownership is still JB
To be fair, no one is bashing Ashland Farm here. On the contrary, we are all immensely thankful that Aloha has a new, permanent home and that Redwine is standing at a facility where he will be cared for as he should have been all along. We are also thankful that Ashland has stepped up and agreed to honor past breeding contracts.
I will not be asking them to honor mine, due to a multitude of reasons, the main one being that I'm completely over the whole situation and consider it a lesson learned. That's my choice.
Ashland has chosen to step into the middle of a PR nightmare, and solely for the horses' sake I commend them for doing so. I certainly hope that they do wind up purchasing Redwine outright sometime in the near future. That's the only way that they will be free of the Jill Burnell debacle (and I hope that all her horses go to better homes sooner rather than later). No one is against the welfare of Redwine, or against the efforts of Ashland Farm, but until they shake off the Jill Burnell factor, IMO the waters will continue to be muddy. I wish them well
I wonder how they will handle getting a breeding cert from 2012, if you were successful in getting the semen, getting a foal, but unfortunately have no paper work (other than the vet and a trainer who would say "Yes, this foal if by RW").
OK A) I have notified ashland owners of the lovely bash fest here B) aloha is now owned by pikkturesque
Really people, ashland are good people here! I will back out now and let ashland and the mods decide how far this goes
Im done here, i dont think paul and darlene deserve this
No one is bashing them. They are just stating the reasons why they will not pay for a breeding to a stallion owned by Jill Burnell, regardless of where it is standing or who is managing it.
I sincerely hope this ends well for the owners of Ashland, but based upon JB's past behavior pattern, I suspect this will be short lived too.
Silvercreek never mentioned whether Aloha's lien had been paid off. Last post I read, it was still unpaid, so until it's cleared, I don't consider him sold either. Jill Burnell has a history of using and abusing people's generosity and walking away leaving a mess in her wake - I just hope Ashland is aware of what they're getting into.
That's correct. Aloha's outstanding balance for the stallion test remains unpaid and we still have possession of his registration papers/passport.
So pitiful. I hope you're able to get this resolved sooner rather than later, but I have a feeling the outstanding balance owed is likely more than the horse is even worth at this point.
My question is.... if you have a 3 year breeding contract (or whatever GFF used), the contract is not fulfilled within the time frame, but is now "able" to be fulfilled out outside of the contract period... is she still considered to be in default? I see quite a few people saying that MOs won't have a "claim" now as Ashland is offering to honor any unfulfilled contracts. But what if the contract was signed in 2008 and it was for 3 years?