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  1. #61
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    Why would you do that? They may have no knowledge of the outstanding debt(I am sure Jill didn't tell them) and certainly weren't involved with the test. Who knows what story Jill gave them when they bought the stallion. They will find out soon enough when they need papers and can't get them. Then THEY can decide if they want to pay the debt to release the papers. But they shouldn't be forced to.

    Too many here forget that only a tiny percentage of the horse world reads this forum. That fact, coupled with Jill's BS, makes it very easy to believe that Aloha's new owner is unaware of any entanglements.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com


    4 members found this post helpful.

  2. #62
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    Mar. 8, 2004
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    Baltimore, MD
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    Surely her BS didn't magically make his papers appear though. I know the new owner is not the bad guy but I hate to see someone lose what little bit of leverage they had. The whole reason you get a lien is to stop exactly what happened from happening. Hopefully they can work things out.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Jun. 11, 2008
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    Ontario
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    My only question, and it would be aimed at any stallion purchase not just these two particular stallions, is why would you buy a breeding stallion if you didn't have his papers in your hand?
    Alison/Mikali Farms
    www.mikalifarms.com


    12 members found this post helpful.

  4. #64
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    Jul. 21, 2011
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    Oh dear, what a mess.

    Teddy, I don't think anyone is bashing Ashland or it's people.

    The stallions come from a very dubious person and apparently she still owns at least one of them. They carry that horrible reputation with them, and there have been too many victims, for the situation to "go away" just because the stallions have been moved to Canada.

    I hope Ashland will not be counted among the victims of Jill Burnell. I'm sure they are good people who perhaps did not realize that the situation surrounding these stallions is terrible, really terrible.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Oct. 4, 2003
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    Oklahoma
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    I don't understand why anyone would buy a breeding stallion without doing a tiny bit of research ... research into what the stallion is producing, his bloodlines, his inspection scores, his testing scores, his performance results, his licensing and eligibility, his semen quality, his popularity and feedback on forums, etc. The very first place most would start is with a simple GOOGLE search.

    Quote Originally Posted by lauriep View Post
    Why would you do that? They may have no knowledge of the outstanding debt(I am sure Jill didn't tell them) and certainly weren't involved with the test. Who knows what story Jill gave them when they bought the stallion. They will find out soon enough when they need papers and can't get them. Then THEY can decide if they want to pay the debt to release the papers. But they shouldn't be forced to.

    Too many here forget that only a tiny percentage of the horse world reads this forum. That fact, coupled with Jill's BS, makes it very easy to believe that Aloha's new owner is unaware of any entanglements.
    Silver Creek Farms - home of Apiro & Validation
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    11 members found this post helpful.

  6. #66
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    Nov. 23, 2001
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    Catharpin, Virginia
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    Absolutely this.

    Buying a stallion (especially one that is well known and "seasoned" and popular that is likely to come with a hefty price tag because of all of the above) is a major undertaking.

    Beyond what all of what you listed, typically a pre-purchase soundness exam is done -- whether in work or not to make sure they are physically fit for mounting a phantom day in day out and will hold up to the task. Being a breeding machine.

    Many people do not know that a very busy stallion may wind up with ocassional physical issues from spending its life jumping phantom. Can be hard on the hocks and the back. Once they decide to back off of that work it can be problematic to collect on time and get shipments out.

    Never had a problem with my own, but they never have bred the book of mares annually that GFF has reported. In my dreams....

    My wish is that Ashland has not been niave -- they and the horses wind up on their independent feet sans JB and the horse breeding industry can put JB and the likes of her behind us and move on.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  7. #67
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    Nov. 23, 2001
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    Catharpin, Virginia
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    Uh hum....

    Perhaps her # of mares bred were hypebole, but clearly there has been a rabid following as evidenced by the original thread and the ancillary ones that have followed.

    It's important to remember, mares are not only the breeding machines for people like this, but the stallions are as well. It's tasking work, not just fun and games for the boys either. Without proper care, nutrition and turnout they can also burn out. It called breeding stress.

    Sadly, the mares decline first if they are not fed well and given proper prenatal and post natal care...as they are "expendible" if you keep getting new ones from unsuspeting lessors.

    Yet, stallions can have the same problem from over use...but at least they are typically fed so the pics look okay -- and if people come to see them they are not skin and bones.

    Creeps me out how clever this was. Foal mill, no doubt.

    I have stallions and indeed people want to keep them showcased...but the girlies? The best of the best who deserve the very, very best. Always.

    I can't imagine anyone doing damage to any horse, much less one that belongs to someone else. That's really criminal. Obviously, it's out there and we've seen and read about it before.

    This high-profile case, I pray, will be a wake up call for mare owners to get references from other MO's before choosing.
    Last edited by sid; Mar. 20, 2013 at 09:05 PM.


    10 members found this post helpful.

  8. #68
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    Jan. 13, 2008
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    Puppy mills aren't good, but with horses being required to carry a human being, proper prenatal care, exercise and nutrition during gestation should be number one ... so the fetus develops to its full potential.



  9. #69
    Join Date
    Nov. 25, 2007
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    Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikali View Post
    My only question, and it would be aimed at any stallion purchase not just these two particular stallions, is why would you buy a breeding stallion if you didn't have his papers in your hand?


    3 members found this post helpful.

  10. #70
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    Nov. 5, 2000
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    Originally Posted by mikali
    My only question, and it would be aimed at any stallion purchase not just these two particular stallions, is why would you buy a breeding stallion if you didn't have his papers in your hand?
    1. An SO doesn't need to have "papers in hand" in order to sign breeding certificates. Some registries will accept the BC without regard to who the legal owner is. Some registries don't even require a BC.

    2. As evidenced time and again on this forum and elsewhere, many hunter people don't care about papers.

    3. USEF does not require registration papers to obtain a USEF horse number, or to show in USEF competitions.

    4. There is no law against standing a stallion without registration papers , and there are breeders who will use such stallions because of convenience, affordability, they are the right "color", etc.

    But really - if JillB signed a bill of sale for Aloha that stated he was hers to sell "free of encumbrances", she lied. And committed fraud. But no surprise on either count.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  11. #71
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    Oct. 31, 2002
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    Ontario, Canada
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    If you want black with bling, we've got better in Canada.
    If you just want black, we've got better in Canada.
    If you just want chrome we've got better in Canada.
    Better performance records, test scores and produce records - we've got those in Canada too.
    It is beyond my comprehension why anyone would breed to these stallions - and directly or indirectly continue to support a person who has had horses seized from her for abuse - when there are so many BETTER choices that are also ethically sound.


    30 members found this post helpful.

  12. #72
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    Apr. 28, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikali View Post
    My only question, and it would be aimed at any stallion purchase not just these two particular stallions, is why would you buy a breeding stallion if you didn't have his papers in your hand?
    Isn't it probable to think that the papers were replaced by the original registry? You CAN get papers reissued if they're "lost". The original registry was in Germany for both stallions as both were imported. Germany, no doubt, stays well far, wide and clear of this board, nor has any interest in the goings on regarding Burnell and whoever else she is involved with or has legal problems with. As long as the owner on file writes in notifying them the papers were lost, accidently destroyed, yadda yadda, and follows procedure, I'm pretty sure they can be replaced, especially at the same time a change of ownership form is also simultaneously submitted. I have replacement papers/passport from Holland for one of my mares, so quite sure Germany replaces them too.
    http://www.mariposasporthorses.com/

    Practice! Patience! Persistence!



  13. #73
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    Apr. 11, 2006
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    Ontario, Canada
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    I'm sure the new owners/managers did a thorough google search before they decided to proceed. They may even be watching this thread with a bowl of popcorn like so many of us are.

    Publicity is publicity, even if it's bad publicity. Everyone knows where these two stallions stand and they've not spent a penny on advertising, no glossy ads, no online ads....NOTHING. Free advertising!!!! It's not the type of advertising many of us would want, but let's face it these two stallions are now far better known to many people then some very accomplished proven producers that stand on this side of the Atlantic.

    These people are running a business, they know what they are doing.

    I believe by Canadian Law you cannot hold the papers in such a situation. The papers belong to the horse and go with the horse. The only exception would be if in a sale, the bill is not paid. The old owner could hold the papers until the debt is paid. A service provider like a trainer, or in this case a farm running a performance test could not legally hold the papers, even for an unpaid debt. Maybe US law differs. But as others have said, it will not likely make much of a difference. I feel bad for everyone who has suffered financially from this situation. I'm sure this thread will discourage some breeders, but it's no doubt added to the fame of these two stallions which in my opinion will ultimately benefit both the old and new owners.



  14. #74
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    Jun. 11, 2004
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    Still here ~ not yet there
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    Quote Originally Posted by vandenbrink View Post
    I'm sure the new owners/managers did a thorough google search before they decided to proceed. They may even be watching this thread with a bowl of popcorn like so many of us are.

    Publicity is publicity, even if it's bad publicity. Everyone knows where these two stallions stand and they've not spent a penny on advertising, no glossy ads, no online ads....NOTHING. Free advertising!!!! It's not the type of advertising many of us would want, but let's face it these two stallions are now far better known to many people then some very accomplished proven producers that stand on this side of the Atlantic.

    These people are running a business, they know what they are doing.

    I believe by Canadian Law you cannot hold the papers in such a situation. The papers belong to the horse and go with the horse. The only exception would be if in a sale, the bill is not paid. The old owner could hold the papers until the debt is paid. A service provider like a trainer, or in this case a farm running a performance test could not legally hold the papers, even for an unpaid debt. Maybe US law differs. But as others have said, it will not likely make much of a difference. I feel bad for everyone who has suffered financially from this situation. I'm sure this thread will discourage some breeders, but it's no doubt added to the fame of these two stallions which in my opinion will ultimately benefit both the old and new owners.
    You'd be surprised how stupid people can be. I know TWO people who paid about $25,000 for stallion prospects from a breeder (Akhal Teke). Neither did a pre-purchase exam. Both stallions ended up sterile.

    I could not imagine how people with that kind of $$ can be THAT stupid, but believe me, they can be...


    4 members found this post helpful.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Aug. 30, 2007
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    Southern California
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    Sorry to bump this thread back up, but I wanted to link to a post on HGS that seems to finally have some credible information regarding Redwine's ownership.

    http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com...ml#post7175238


    1 members found this post helpful.

  16. #76
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    Jan. 2, 2013
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    146

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    Glad to see you did this Shannon!!!!! really disappointed in Darlene for apparently lying outright to me on SATURDAY that they owned Redwine AND that they owned Aloha WITH Pikturesque if husband said to someone in person on Friday that they did NOT,,,,seriously not sure how anyone could believe a word coming out of their mouths. Will not breed to him no matter HOW much I love my RW baby. Really feel sorry for him. Yes he is out of the mess he was in, but now more stigma attached to his name hate hate hate lying


    6 members found this post helpful.

  17. #77
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    Dec. 19, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by horsenut93136 View Post
    Glad to see you did this Shannon!!!!! really disappointed in Darlene for apparently lying outright to me on SATURDAY that they owned Redwine AND that they owned Aloha WITH Pikturesque if husband said to someone in person on Friday that they did NOT,,,,seriously not sure how anyone could believe a word coming out of their mouths. Will not breed to him no matter HOW much I love my RW baby. Really feel sorry for him. Yes he is out of the mess he was in, but now more stigma attached to his name hate hate hate lying

    Remember water seeks its own level. Willingly entering into some sort of lease/business contract with her vs buying the stallion out right , when there is SO much information and examples out there of how badly it always goes.
    Tells you a lot about the person right there. Perhaps they just like to dance with the devil.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


    11 members found this post helpful.

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Oct. 10, 2008
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    Palm Beach Gardens, FL
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    So.....
    Jill Burnell still owns Redwine and Aloha. She has sent them to Ashland Farm in Canada to stand. Clearly she is still benefiting from this.
    Ashland Farm is charging a $400 booking fee and a $250 collection fee to anyone who can prove they have an outstanding contract to these stallions. So even after all the money put out for breedings that didn't take or were never fulfilled they are asking mare owners to shell out another $650 plus shipping (which from Canada to US isn't cheap) for semen. Seriously who in their right mind would do this?
    Ronda Stavinsky tried to do the right thing and get the wonderful Romantic Star out of that horrible situation and everyone threw her under the bus to the point where she gave up and had to back out of the deal because it was affecting her business. Yet some of you are willing to do business with Ashland Farm without question???
    I have heard first hand from a trainer in Wellington who had two of the big Redwine winners on the line, RV & RR, that they were so rank that she sent them back to the owner.
    Peter Pletcher said Aloha should be cut and made into a Children's Hunter as he had no scope. I saw him land splay-legged onto the bank at the stallion test in an unsuccessful attempt to jump up onto it. It was about 2.5 feet high I think.
    Like someone said earlier there are a good number of black stallions with chrome who would be a much better choice because they are actually athletes as well. Just to name a few available fresh, Sir Wanabi, Gatsby, Devon Heir, Balt'Amour, Diamond Stud, Kinnaras, Harvard, etc.
    So help me understand why anyone is still breeding to Redwine and Aloha?
    www.MarabetFarm.com
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    20 members found this post helpful.

  19. #79
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    Mar. 8, 2004
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    Bash the connections not the horse please.


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  20. #80
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    Dec. 16, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    Bash the connections not the horse please.
    Sharing opinions about stallions is what this forum is for, whether you own an offspring or not.


    22 members found this post helpful.

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