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  1. #1
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    Default Can any TB experts help me with this pedigree?

    I just bought this horse, who is a bay mare, approved ISR/Old.

    I really am not that familiar with pedigrees but I see Storm Cat in there, and I've heard bad things.

    Can anyone tell me more about this? I'm looking for this to be a horse for me (small adult amateur) to ride and maybe toot around at Novice-- not an upper level event prospect.

    http://www.pedigreequery.com/skip+west+hailey



  2. #2
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    I'm not a Storm Cat fan, but the rest of the pedigree is exemplary for sport. There's not a line in it which has not been proved in sport. You're very lucky to have Tudor Melody so reasonably close. He's a big influence for movement; and the number of horses who have produced jumping horses is enormous.

    Mill Reef, Tudor Melody, Galivanter (damsire of the sire of Nova Top); Haytime is a daughter of Alycidon and a granddaughter of Umidwar; Well Decorated is the damsire of two current UL event horses in the US; Skip Trial is Damascus line and is the damsire of Gaelic Marriage; Promised Land is back in the pedigrees of quite a few Advanced horses and is the damsire of Spectacular Bid; Fluorsee has a lovely pedigree (sire is Double Jay); and then there is the line to Diplomat Way on the bottom. Nice top and bottom double to Tudor Minstrel. Also top and bottom to No. D and Bold Ruler.

    This is, IMO, one of the most promising Storm Cat line pedigrees for sport that I have seen.

    You might well have a horse with UL talent and the temperament to match.

    I'd be interested in knowing if she has good dressage movement.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  3. #3
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    Wow, thank you so much.

    I bought her without knowing the pedigree from the pen at Camelot. I bought her basically on the ISR/Old approval since then at least I knew she was a good mover and well conformed when in good weight.

    I bought her to be my own horse-- and I am sincerely hoping that if she is not super ammy friendly, that she is at least tolerable. And if she turns out to be more, I'd be happy to move her on to someone who can do her justice.

    When she clears quarantine, I will definitely reply back



  4. #4
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    Pictures???
    The rebel in the grey shirt



  5. #5
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    It's always about that individual horse, not so much the pedigree...particularly when you get past the parents- I mean, they have 4 grandparents and only ever see or get influenced by the mares.

    Most of the "negative press" has been about some own sons and sometimes grandsons. I would not worry and she might make great WB cross as SC, whatever else, he put a competitive athlete on the ground.

    You got so many other good ones in there? I think you got a good one here that can be proud of the Storm Cat in her, he got some amazing winners even if some of them did not know when to quit or turn the macho switch off.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  6. #6
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    Oct. 22, 2010
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    I'm curious myself, about Storm Cat because I also just ended up with a mare that has Storm Cat as a grand sire? But from what little I know it looks like Storm Cat was crossed with very high end mares?! I know a lot of people don't like him as the direct sire but a grand sire, right? What are the main reasons for the dislike, is it just because of the temperament he passes on or is it conformation, genetic issues, etc....

    I don't know about your mare's personality but mine has been one of the sweetest horses I have owned.



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenbrin View Post
    I'm curious myself, about Storm Cat because I also just ended up with a mare that has Storm Cat as a grand sire? But from what little I know it looks like Storm Cat was crossed with very high end mares?! I know a lot of people don't like him as the direct sire but a grand sire, right? What are the main reasons for the dislike, is it just because of the temperament he passes on or is it conformation, genetic issues, etc....

    I don't know about your mare's personality but mine has been one of the sweetest horses I have owned.
    I have no idea of her personality beyond that the handlers said she was polite, etc. I won't know for a couple weeks probably until she clears quarantine.



  8. #8
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    Mar. 6, 2013
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    I hate when people right off the bat say they are "not a fan" of a certain horse's offspring. Each horse is an individual. I think while their is something to say for genetics, some has to do with environment.

    I had a gelding that was sired by Storm Cat and he was the must level headed, calm OTTB I had even ridden. Currently, I have a mare from a noted "calm" TB stallion and she is nutcase.



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenbrin View Post
    I'm curious myself, about Storm Cat because I also just ended up with a mare that has Storm Cat as a grand sire? But from what little I know it looks like Storm Cat was crossed with very high end mares?! I know a lot of people don't like him as the direct sire but a grand sire, right? What are the main reasons for the dislike, is it just because of the temperament he passes on or is it conformation, genetic issues, etc....

    I don't know about your mare's personality but mine has been one of the sweetest horses I have owned.
    Jenbrin, a lot of people are not fan of Storm Cat because he has been known to throw hot horses. It doesn't have to do with conformation or genetic issues.


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  10. #10
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    It's a very nice pedigree

    Good on ya for taking a chance on a Camelot horse. Friend of mine got a nice school pony from there.

    Keep us posted please? We want pics when she comes home!


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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenbrin View Post
    But from what little I know it looks like Storm Cat was crossed with very high end mares?! I know a lot of people don't like him as the direct sire but a grand sire, right? What are the main reasons for the dislike, is it just because of the temperament he passes on or is it conformation, genetic issues, etc....
    For me it isn't a specific like or dislike. I look at a ton of UL event horse pedigrees every year and considering what a popular race horse sire Storm Cat was it is simply amazing how rarely he shows up in the successful sport horse pedigrees I look at.


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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by subk View Post
    For me it isn't a specific like or dislike. I look at a ton of UL event horse pedigrees every year and considering what a popular race horse sire Storm Cat was it is simply amazing how rarely he shows up in the successful sport horse pedigrees I look at.

    I wonder if that will start to change in a few years. He was so high priced and such a good race horse sire...I wouldn't expect to see many making into the sport world until about now (as grand kids and great grand kids filter in). And it will take a few more years for them to filter up the levels. Plus we have to get those that don't get fried or used up on the track.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **


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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by subk View Post
    For me it isn't a specific like or dislike. I look at a ton of UL event horse pedigrees every year and considering what a popular race horse sire Storm Cat was it is simply amazing how rarely he shows up in the successful sport horse pedigrees I look at.
    This.

    And also there is a very strong QH like sprinter component in Storm Cat that I don't think has much place in sport horses, especially eventers. He was not a very good sire of classic distance horses. If William Micklem is right and the best TB lines for eventing are classic distance sires (1 1/4 to 2 miles), Storm Cat ain't it in general. As grandsire, his influence is lessened, but it's still there to come out when his genes meet up with others of his type.

    And even if he does start showing up in pedigrees, it won't be because of his quality but more because of his quantity. As grandsire he is found in some quality FEI performers, but this has only happened in the past five years. As sire he has none.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    I wonder if that will start to change in a few years. He was so high priced and such a good race horse sire...I wouldn't expect to see many making into the sport world until about now (as grand kids and great grand kids filter in). And it will take a few more years for them to filter up the levels. Plus we have to get those that don't get fried or used up on the track.
    I am sure you are right and we will see an increase. BUT his oldest children are now approaching 25 years old. When you consider the high rate of failure of even the most successful sires of producing useful runners that's a lot of of non breeding material floating around out there.

    In comparison in the same pedigree we're looking at is Notebook as the other grandsire. Notebook is a Storm Cat contemporary being 2 years younger having produced significantly fewer horses and yet that's a name that I sit up and take note of in a sport horse pedigree. I understand that being a less valuable for racing make his kids and grandkids are more easily released on the sport horse market, but looking at the shear number of Storm Cat covers (85+ a year!) for almost 20 years in the shed it is still surprising to me the almost complete absence of him in UL pedigrees. It is almost spooky.

    The other thing I'd add is that Storm Cat is 13 years younger Mr. P--a name that 13 years ago was already being seen regularly in UL pedigrees. In terms of quantities of kids and their value in the racing market, I think they would be comparable.


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  15. #15
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    Isn't Storm Cat also associated with some unsoundness issues?

    If he has been associated with siring hotter and more opinionated horses in general, I would think they would be a bit tougher to train and then if soundness were questionable that might explain the lack of UL eventers with SC blood.



  16. #16
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    Storm Cat can (could) sometimes throw an offset knee, like his own. His soundness issues prevented him from running as long as he could have.

    That being said, I have two incredible talented SC mares and they both inherited his opinionated, difficult personality, but with great limbs and feet. One has jumping talent, the other has yet to pick her feet up high enough to clean a trot pole without sending it crashing across the arena! She's the reason I had to buy a dressage saddle...
    "Dogs give and give and give. Cats are the gift that keeps on grifting." –Bradley Trevor Greive


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  17. #17
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    I suspect I saw your mare's picture and was impressed with her conformation, even in the less than ideal situation for taking photos! Her pedigree matches the impression I had of a TB mare whose picture I saw from there, at least.


    Good luck with her - hopefully it turns out fabulously for both of you!
    My horse is a dressage diva so I don't have to be.

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    If you have a fat gay horse that likes Parelli, you're really screwed



  18. #18
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    Not a fan of the conformation I've seen storm cat offspring have: I agree they seem to be built more qh/sprinter like.

    For sport I'd like to see something with better conformation which leads to better longevity with both soundness nd fitness

    This mares pedigree does have a lot of other good horses listed so hopefully her conformation reflects that.
    "My ideal horse is the horse that I fall in love with again every morning when I see his face hanging over the stable door, looking for breakfast. " - Jim Wofford



  19. #19
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    I have an awesome Storm Cat grandson by Stormy Atlantic. I'm sure there are bad ones but there are good ones too, so I wouldn't let it worry you if you like her otherwise.



  20. #20
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    1. Few ul progeny
    2. Sprinter confo
    3. Frequently poor trainability/mind
    4. Early maturing
    5. Frequently beautiful, no major genetic flaws other than short twitch bulky muscling (prospector is the big name with confo issues)

    Go for phenotype, not genotype. If the individual suits you that's enough.



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