[cssutton]

On the Black Walnut shavings. A friend got a free couple bags of sawdust from a wood worker neighbor to use for bedding. Great stuff she said! However the mare had swollen legs the next AM. Called the Vet, who came and asked the questions about "any changes?" in things. She said bedding, and had friend call the neighbor about what KIND of wood sawdust was in the bags. Yes to Black Walnut, but "only a little". No idea on percentages, but with removal of that sawdust bedding and treatment, they prevented Lamanitus in mare, got the swelling down on her legs. Ended up with hair coming off the legs in spots, evidently the Walnut oil in wood stuck on hair more. Took time, but mare did finally recover.

Friend said sawdust was all light color, so probably NOT MUCH Black Walnut in the mix. But the horse reacted BADLY to that little amount, so here is one example from the other side. I wouldn't want to chance using ANY Black Walnut product near my equines. And yeah, ingesting that couple Teaspoons of Black Walnut shavings is what quantity they used in Laminitus studies, according to Vet friends doing the studies.

Walnut is not all "black" or the color of your gun stock.

Green or immature walnut, like new branches, shoots, etc., are as yellow as a bannana.

Since for fine woodwork one wants the dark wood, it is likely that your friend ground up the yellow and kept all of the dark.
The small amount of dark could have been a smaller piece of scrap that was either too small to be useful or that contained a defect, such as a knot, split, etc.

[ldaziens]

On the Black Walnut shavings. A friend got a free couple bags of sawdust from a wood worker neighbor to use for bedding. Great stuff she said! However the mare had swollen legs the next AM. Called the Vet, who came and asked the questions about "any changes?" in things. She said bedding, and had friend call the neighbor about what KIND of wood sawdust was in the bags. Yes to Black Walnut, but "only a little". No idea on percentages, but with removal of that sawdust bedding and treatment, they prevented Lamanitus in mare, got the swelling down on her legs. Ended up with hair coming off the legs in spots, evidently the Walnut oil in wood stuck on hair more. Took time, but mare did finally recover.

Friend said sawdust was all light color, so probably NOT MUCH Black Walnut in the mix. But the horse reacted BADLY to that little amount, so here is one example from the other side. I wouldn't want to chance using ANY Black Walnut product near my equines. And yeah, ingesting that couple Teaspoons of Black Walnut shavings is what quantity they used in Laminitus studies, according to Vet friends doing the studies.

Here's the problem:
It is very hard to get non-horse people to grasp the deadly seriousness of things like black walnut, grass clippings, overdosing on corn/grain.

My uncle has different businesses related to fine hardwoods, and I was going to grab a truck load of shavings from the millwork shop. My uncle mentioned that "some lady wanted shavings for her horses, but she was obsessed with whether or not there was any black walnut shavings - something about their hooves or some non-sense". He sent her on her way w/o shavings b/c he didn't want to fool with her, and they already have a deal with a poultry farmer who comes and swaps out the semi truck trailer when it's full. I ended up not even taking any for my birds, because they were so dusty.

So, my point is that I would be extremely cautious regarding shavings from lumber mills / millwork shops / etc. I was able to explain to my uncle that the Black Walnut would cause the horse(s) to have to be put down - that it was deadly serious, and he made sure that all of the workers knew not to give the shavings to anybody w/ horses PERIOD. In a busy shop, they are NOT going to shut everything down and separate out the black walnut - the shavings get sucked up and deposited in a pile, and they aren't doing just 1 black walnut board - they process loads of lumber or work on a millwork project.

So, just be careful.

[alto]

For those of you claiming association with the PNW - you bloody well better know that horses can have extreme reactions to cedar & die within hours of exposure

Fortunately most local barns will not use any sort of cedar bedding, though it's still in use as a cheap footing for outdoor arenas.

[horsepoor]

For those of you claiming association with the PNW - you bloody well better know that horses can have extreme reactions to cedar & die with hours of exposure

Fortunately most local barns will not use any sort of cedar bedding, though it's still in use as a cheap footing for outdoor arenas.

Okay, I'll bite. I'm in the PNW and have not heard of equine deaths caused by cedar. I will ask my vet this week about it when he's here, as I'm curious now.

I have been in several barns with cedar arena footing. I have had one horse get itchy from it. I've had a bad reaction myself to it as well (itchy, skin irritation from the dust). I've also seen it used as bedding, but not where I've boarded. My vets have been in the barns, seen the cedar footing, talked about it (most didn't like it, but for reasons related to how it is as a footing material), and never once told me my horse was going to die from it. Did they miss something?

[alto]

Mostly it just occurs as a skin sensitivity, less frequently digestive & breathing issues, rarely death (thankfully) - not my horse, so all I'll say, is that it happens.

[cssutton]

For those of you claiming association with the PNW - you bloody well better know that horses can have extreme reactions to cedar & die within hours of exposure

Fortunately most local barns will not use any sort of cedar bedding, though it's still in use as a cheap footing for outdoor arenas.

For many many years, probably more than 60 years, there was a company in Greensboro, NC, whose business was extracting cedar oil from the sawdust and shavings from the scrap from their cedar products.

The shavings and sawdust were highly prized by those in the horse industry that were changing from straw to other bedding.

The company delivered the cedar to the barns by truck.

The company closed years ago due to the change in family interests.

Never did I ever hear of a problem.

It is true oil was extracted, but it is also true that there was a lot of oil left. The large quantities used by those using it would have exposed the horses to enough oil to cause problems if there were any substance to the claim that cedar oil will kill a horse.

An allergic reaction by one horse in thousands is no reason for hysterics.

[ReSomething]

Well maybe the bothersome boarder and Alto were at the same horseshow.

[ReSomething]

Well maybe the bothersome boarder and Alto were at the same horseshow.

[goodhors]

The company delivered the cedar to the barns by truck.

An allergic reaction by one horse in thousands is no reason for hysterics.

Guess it will depend on if it is YOUR sick/dead horse, how hysterical it gets!!

I look at this cedar bedding as a variation on the people who can't eat nuts. You don't SURPRISE them with food information after serving it! You can KILL THEM with those nuts as an ingredient in a dish!

I am glad this Cedar bedding issue is being discussed, with lots of personal experiences being related. Stuff that can SOMETIMES cause a problem, needs to be brought up and alert other horse owners to be aware in their use of certain products.

With horsekeepers aware and observent, catching that "one in thousands" horse who is reactive, could prevent it going so far as dying in cedar bedding.

Everyone should learn a new thing daily, and using safe types of wood for bedding is a great topic to cover. Thanks everyone, information will be helpful to me at some point.

[cssutton]

Guess it will depend on if it is YOUR sick/dead horse, how hysterical it gets!!

I look at this cedar bedding as a variation on the people who can't eat nuts. You don't SURPRISE them with food information after serving it! You can KILL THEM with those nuts as an ingredient in a dish!

I am glad this Cedar bedding issue is being discussed, with lots of personal experiences being related. Stuff that can SOMETIMES cause a problem, needs to be brought up and alert other horse owners to be aware in their use of certain products.

With horsekeepers aware and observent, catching that "one in thousands" horse who is reactive, could prevent it going so far as dying in cedar bedding.

Everyone should learn a new thing daily, and using safe types of wood for bedding is a great topic to cover. Thanks everyone, information will be helpful to me at some point.

I agree.

And I do like to learn something new every day.

So please list the horses you know of that suffered more than a skin irritant from cedar shavings.

Horse's name, owner's name, veterinary clinic involve, ultimate disposition of the case.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

And since this seems to be a severe case of thread creep, you might want to start a new thread.

[trubandloki]

I too am interested in know what a severe reaction to cedar is all about. Never heard of that one.

I would think if it was as common as nut allergies in humans I would have heard of a case by now, since many of the people in my neck of the woods use bulk dust bought at a lumber mill.

[ThreeFigs]

As long as this thread has gone SO far afield, what about these cedar-based fly repellents? I used Cedarcide last summer and had no trouble. The stuff smells very cedar-y.

OP, how's it going?

[Appsolute]

For those of you claiming association with the PNW - you bloody well better know that horses can have extreme reactions to cedar & die within hours of exposure

Fortunately most local barns will not use any sort of cedar bedding, though it's still in use as a cheap footing for outdoor arenas.

Interesting… most of the feed stores around here sell “cedar rest” – it is an expensive bedding / paddock footing made for horses. About 7 of the 14 paddocks at my boarding barn have cedar rest in the paddocks (keeps pee spots dry, makes for soft area to lay down). No swollen legs, no hives, no horses dropping dead.

That said, my horse is sensitive to cedar – discovered this when her skin got peely after using “Flicks” fly spray – which contains cedar in it. FYI – many herbal fly sprays contain cedar.

Edited to add:

Alto, where are you from? Maybe it is a different Cedar you are talking about?

Cedarest

CedaRest Cedar Fiber Paddock Bedding is made from Midwestern Aromatic Cedar and hastested completely safe for animals. (Not to be confused with the Northwestern Red Cedar, which may be toxic).

[cloudyandcallie]

Are we still debating cedar shavings and not the boarder from hell?

When one BO added cedar shavings from petsmart to our pine shavings, Callie broke out in tiny hives. Same reaction as when she'd infrequently get an ant bite. No other issue from the cedar. some of my friends mix cedar oil in their homemade fly repellent.

I guess a horse with severe allergic reactions to cedar could die from being bedded on it, but I've never heard of that. And I live in SE Coastal GA where the barrier islands and coast have lots of cedar trees.

As for walnut shavings, I've read some of the studies done by vet schools that said that horses who were ridden over walnut shavings foundered. That's good enough to keep me from every allowing walnut shavings near my horses. The vet school studies were controlled studies of laminitis and founder.

So what is the latest on the boarder? With OP being pregnant and unable to drink wine, she doesn't need the stress of someone yelling and screaming at her husband and making OP's life miserable.

[Foxtrot's]

Yes, C&C, we are still talking cedar! I do more than claim to be in the PNW, I am in coastal BC. Cedar hog fuel has been a staple for riding arenas, rings, turnout areas, and cedar sawdust has been used by many, many barns for decades. Now and then a horse will show signs of sensitivity, in which case it can be moved onto pine pellets, shavings, etc. with no further problems. I remember a chestnut horse coming out in hives on the legs once, years ago.

Hog, fuel, BTW, is the peeled bark from the Western Red Cedar tree that is otherwise a waste product now that it is not burned any more on site at the mills in 'beehives'.

Blueberry farms, which is a huge thing here, use it on their bushes.

I have a pile of Cypress, or yellow cedar sawdust, in the middle of my turnout paddock which they have levelled themselves and where they sunbathe, roll and sleep. Never any sort of problem, but far fewer flies.

....back to the OP's post.....

[ldaziens]

Until OP comes back to update us & get us on track...

Foxtrot, your fellow Canadians ARE suffering from the cedar

http://forum.canadianwoodworking.com...ing-with-cedar

But, in all seriousness, the aroma is the least of your worries... it's the dust that is killing us all right now -

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/pel88/wooddust.html

I use Pine Pellets, and I was contemplating today how even though they seem to be dusty when they break down; the "dust" does not go very far up in the air, and it settles down fast whereas when I dump a bad of LARGE flake shavings, dust is going everywhere floor to ceiling and has a long "hang time".

[Calamber]

I'm kind of in awe of those of you that live in communities where the police will come and hang out while your tenant removes their horse and tack. I am pretty sure if I made such a call in my community, they would laugh at me, if not charge me with something. I mean, this person is just a tenant, hasn't been violent or made threats (that I've read here) and expecting the local cops to be at a BO's beck and call for such a situation...wow.

But do carry on.

But she did assault her husband, verbal assault is assault.

[mvp]

I forgot about hog fuel!

[/I]

Hog, fuel, BTW, is the peeled bark from the Western Red Cedar tree that is otherwise a waste product now that it is not burned any more on site at the mills in 'beehives'.

the beehives were also called the mill's "hog." What is that, a big-a## boiler?

In any case, I had never seen it before coming to the PNW. It was the answer to torn up carpets used in arenas before that answer to whatever was the question.

Oh, and folks put it over rocked paddocks here to deal with the mud. I don't get it. The plan seems to be to have a carpet over the ground that the horse never punches through. I think you redo them in the fall every year or so. Like I say, I don't get it. But I know of no good solution for PNW mud.

[Foxtrot's]

To be quite honest - these days very little hog fuel is used in arenas - most people go for sand, or commercial mixes, or expensive 'footing'....the hog fuel would get punched through too soon and there would be soupy patches.
But it is discontinued because of other factors, not because horses died!

Now, that's all settled, what else can we discuss until OP gets back?

[horsepoor]

But she did assault her husband, verbal assault is assault.

I don't think in the eyes of the law, it is. If so, the prisons would be even fuller than they already are!