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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie locks View Post
    If your horse goes in a pelham or double most judges know because he's strong and needs more bit.

    It's not about what's "in", it's about a horse you want to ride for hours of Hunting! Judging is subjective. I have yet to meet a judge that picked the winner because of a fashion statement.
    You sort of defeat yourself a little here. If its "about a horse you want to ride for hours of hunting" then I'll take the forward horse in a double bridle over the slowwww horse loping around in a D-ring popping the rider out of the tack over every fence.

    Except - the judges reward the back cracking jump and rhythm of a metronome, so clearly a favored fox hunting ride is not what is being rewarded. (Have you ever seen a fox hunt? They are definitely not going slow or at one consistent pace!)


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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rel6 View Post
    You sort of defeat yourself a little here. If its "about a horse you want to ride for hours of hunting" then I'll take the forward horse in a double bridle over the slowwww horse loping around in a D-ring popping the rider out of the tack over every fence.

    Except - the judges reward the back cracking jump and rhythm of a metronome, so clearly a favored fox hunting ride is not what is being rewarded. (Have you ever seen a fox hunt? They are definitely not going slow or at one consistent pace!)
    Okay where did I say anything about going slow and back-cracking jumps?!

    No I live under a rock and have never seen a fox hunt.

    And you are wrong about the horses being rewarded in the Hunters. I just love when people pull out the whiny going so slow malarkey. Go take your slow back-cracking horse over a 3 6 jump and tell me how it works out for you.
    Last edited by Goldie locks; Mar. 13, 2013 at 12:11 AM.
    If you really want to do something, you’ll find a way. If you don’t, you’ll find an excuse.



  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timex View Post
    Did this make anyone else's head hurt? *sigh*
    So you throw out a bomb but don't even enlighten us all with your wisdom? Brilliant.
    If you really want to do something, you’ll find a way. If you don’t, you’ll find an excuse.


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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie locks View Post
    If your horse goes in a pelham or double most judges know because he's strong and needs more bit.
    No...just, no. A judge knows if your horse is strong if they are behaving that way in the ring. Horses don't necessarily go in Pelhams bc they are strong all of the time, or at all. My horse goes in a pelh sometimes because it's easier to keep him together with the bit of leverage when he gets strung out. When he's ridden well he can go around better than the next horse racing around in a D ring.

    You make it sound like a judge would dock a good round if the horse had a Pelham, which simply isn't true.
    Quote Originally Posted by rustbreeches View Post
    [George Morris] doesn't always drink beer, but when he does, he prefers Dos Equis


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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlphilli View Post
    My horse goes in a pelh sometimes because it's easier to keep him together with the bit of leverage when he gets strung out. When he's ridden well he can go around better than the next horse racing around in a D ring.
    Good for this conversation as the OP asked if she should show Hunters in a Double.

    First yes, if you had a horse in the ring in a D running around and a horse in a pelham with a nice round, well yes the nice round in the pelham "should" win.

    However, saying that a horse in a D with a nice round and a horse as you say that needs to be kept together quote "keep him together with the bit of leverage when he gets strung out" the reward "should" go to the horse in the D.

    In your very words you are using a pelham for a horse that gets strung out. So a horse that goes well in a snaffle "should" be rewarded for their responsiveness to a lesser device. It seems pretty straight forward to me.
    If you really want to do something, you’ll find a way. If you don’t, you’ll find an excuse.



  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie locks View Post
    And you are wrong about the horses being rewarded in the Hunters. I just love when people pull out the whiny going so slow malarkey. Go take your slow back-cracking horse over a 3 6 jump and tell me how it works out for you.
    Wait. Are you trying to say that a slow, rhythmic horse with a really round jump is not what wins in the hunters? Because to me (and I'm not saying this negatively) that seems to be the very definition of what is being rewarded in the hunter ring.


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  7. #27
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    Well, if it were me... I'd try showing in the double. The horse goes well in it, it's very traditional, it looks good; why not see if you can lay down some fabulous trips and start a new trend?

    To be honest, it's appalling to me that anyone would prefer a horse go in a severe, unconventional snaffle mouthpiece and consider that more conventional or acceptable than a double bridle. Because in hunters, no one checks your mouthpiece.

    So, not everyone might remember, but it used to be that *no one* showed hunters in a D snaffle. They were race horse bits. And they only came in two mouthpieces: plain jointed, and copper roller. The Bit for Hunters was the full cheek snaffle. (Which itself had replaced the earlier unofficial Bit for Hunters, the flat ring eggbutt snaffle.)

    And then, one shiny day, George Morris, in his Jumping Clinic column, wrote - probably in a completely offhand manner - about a particular photo, how nice it was to see the horse going in an ordinary D snaffle - which I believe was because at that time you could be assured that the mouthpiece was boring and plain. No twists, ports, wire, or the like.

    Low and behold, within two years, everyone who was anyone was showing their hunter in a snaffle with D rings, and all the catalogs had every mouthpiece under the sun for sale with a D ring on it.

    Really quite fascinating.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rel6 View Post
    Wait. Are you trying to say that a slow, rhythmic horse with a really round jump is not what wins in the hunters? Because to me (and I'm not saying this negatively) that seems to be the very definition of what is being rewarded in the hunter ring.

    These are the horses being rewarded

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiuVlpE-TyQ

    You can make up your own mind. I know how I feel about it.

    And let me say we don't even know where the OP will be showing their horse so wearing a double may not even matter. I would guess she will not be competing at a extremely high level as in the above video.

    Bottom line when splitting hairs don't give the judge a reason to ding you if you can.
    If you really want to do something, you’ll find a way. If you don’t, you’ll find an excuse.



  9. #29
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    I don't see why the judge would care. A horse doesn't go in a double bridle until he is very educated. It used to be a horse in a double bridle would probably place over a horse in a snaffle for that reason... I think that how much the judge will care depends a great deal on the class the horse is in... it is more appropriate in the open hunters or derbys than it is in the pre-greens or AA's.


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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie locks View Post
    If your horse goes in a pelham or double most judges know because he's strong and needs more bit.

    It's not about what's "in", it's about a horse you want to ride for hours of Hunting! Judging is subjective. I have yet to meet a judge that picked the winner because of a fashion statement.
    It is ludicrous to compare today's show hunters with the classic (fox) hunters from which they seem to have "morphed". .

    The full bridle is a classic (fox) hunter bridle.

    The old saw "There are fools, damned fools, and men who hunt in snaffles" is but one clue that perhaps you aren't familiar with (fox) hunters.. Some (fox) hunters go in snaffles today, most do not.
    The show hunters of today don't really represent their (fox) hunting predecessors.

    I'd go with what my horse goes well in, and hope for an educated judge.


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  11. #31
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    It will depend on the judge, some judges have voiced their opinion on this thread. Did I miss where you said the level you were going to show?

    I admit I am relatively ignorant on double bridles. At first read- it seems like a crutch- now don't get all crazy. I'm admitting we have never needed one/used one. And I grew up in an old school BNT/ judge hunter A show barn. So I appreciate people's opinion. Having never used one or seen one that I recall, I too, would have thought it would be penalized.

    This will make for a great topic on the way to our next horse show!! I love getting his opinion (32 years later), and yes, sometimes I still get surprised!
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies



  12. #32
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    I lost a class once due to a bit! (Chatted with the judge after the show) both horses had good trips, the winner was in a rubber snaffle, mine in a short shanked pelham. Judges's preference.



  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by poltroon View Post
    So, not everyone might remember, but it used to be that *no one* showed hunters in a D snaffle. They were race horse bits. And they only came in two mouthpieces: plain jointed, and copper roller. The Bit for Hunters was the full cheek snaffle. (Which itself had replaced the earlier unofficial Bit for Hunters, the flat ring eggbutt snaffle.)

    And then, one shiny day, George Morris, in his Jumping Clinic column, wrote - probably in a completely offhand manner - about a particular photo, how nice it was to see the horse going in an ordinary D snaffle - which I believe was because at that time you could be assured that the mouthpiece was boring and plain. No twists, ports, wire, or the like.

    Low and behold, within two years, everyone who was anyone was showing their hunter in a snaffle with D rings, and all the catalogs had every mouthpiece under the sun for sale with a D ring on it.

    Really quite fascinating.
    Love the lesson on the evolution of hunter bit fashion It reminds me of the "history of cerulean" scene in the Devil Wears Prada (starts at 1:00):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LVptO7o4L8

    But back to the topic, I would say it depends on the level of the show and the division you are showing in. I would probably take the double for a "test run" at a schooling show, or in a few trial run classes at the 'A' show to see if you get pinned fairly. And make sure the weymouth is short shanked so it blends in more. I would definitely bring the pelham for back-up in case you need to swap out. I would personally hesitate to use it in a division for ammys, even the adult hunters, since manners are so emphasized and the double may put the judge off as others have said. But if your horse goes best in the double, I would at least give it a try. I's really going to depend on the preference of the judge.
    friend of bar.ka



  14. #34
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    If the bit is used as a tie-breaker, aren't you better off using the bit that your horse goes best in? Better to have a good trip and have the bit be the tie-breaker between first and second, rather than use a different bit and end up sixth or eighth because the trip is not as good.
    Last edited by MHM; Mar. 13, 2013 at 10:27 AM.


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  15. #35
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    As a rider who vacillates between a dressage saddle and a close contact, and a tack junkie besides, I would like to see photos of said double bridle.
    A helmet saved my life.

    2014 goal: learn to ride like TheHorseProblem, er, a barn rat!


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  16. #36
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    Well, I have to assume (whyever would I do that?) that the OP knows the difference between a hunting double and a saddleseat double. That said, I would absolutely go with the double. If your horse goes smoothly, quietly, and 'hunterly' in it, THAT is what should be judged - not the [traditional albeit currently not-in-fashion] bit. There was a time when pancake-flat Hermes/Crosby PdeN/lookalikes were THE saddle. I don't recall anyone getting put down because s/he rode in the Passier/Stubben that was comfortable.

    And Poltroon said it - 'back in the day', THE hunter bit was the eggbutt, and no one used a D - especially those oversized Ds so popular now. And now you almost never see an eggbutt.

    And if the judging comes down to bit preference, what's to say if you were both using the same bit that coat color (of you or the horse) wouldn't have been the deciding factor. Me? I'd go for the buckskin or Ap in the double.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    As a rider who vacillates between a dressage saddle and a close contact, and a tack junkie besides, I would like to see photos of said double bridle.
    A hunter double looks pretty much the same as a dressage double, required (or used to be?) in FEI levels.
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  18. #38
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    Does anyone know an "R" or "r" judge and could potentially ask them? It seems most replies are just speculation on how the double would go over.

    To the OP-- show in the sidesaddle, the double is actually listed as preferred on the appointments list.



  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlight View Post
    Does anyone know an "R" or "r" judge and could potentially ask them? It seems most replies are just speculation on how the double would go over.

    To the OP-- show in the sidesaddle, the double is actually listed as preferred on the appointments list.
    There are a couple who have posted on this thread..



  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlight View Post
    Does anyone know an "R" or "r" judge and could potentially ask them? It seems most replies are just speculation on how the double would go over.
    I have had a big R for many years. It's not speculation on my part.


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