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  1. #41
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    To everyone who is participating in the discussions: thank you. This type of brainstorming is partiuclarly helpful in getting my thoughts organized for when I submit the petition.

    To those who have signed the petition: THANK YOU for taking a few moments to sign the petition.

    But I have to admit I am surprised that after 1056 views, we only have 33 signatures (and a good number aren't from COTH).

    It doesn't make me think this was a bad idea, or that I shouldn't continue to promote and hope for more turn-out, but the lack of signatures does surprise me.....with all the talk on the forums over the past few months, I thought there would be more initial support.

    I know this petition won't magically change everything. I am aware the Town Hall meetings are probably "pacifiers" for the masses. But I am not one to stand by and complain without making an effort to change. What can I say, I'm a mover and a shaker!!
    www.englishivyfarms.com
    Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
    All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown


    1 members found this post helpful.

  2. #42
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    Jun. 19, 2001
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    Englishivy, I like the idea of the petition, but since there aren't any specifics in it, I haven't signed it. I have know way of knowing if I want to put my name on what you eventually decide to present to USEF. You will likely get lots of signatures when you come up with a final proposal. The brainstorming that it has generated is great, but the petition itself may be a little premature at this point. I look forward to seeing your final product! Good luck!


    2 members found this post helpful.

  3. #43
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    Apr. 16, 2010
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    MI
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    Quote Originally Posted by ybiaw View Post
    Suspend them all...

    Shoot, slap a suspension on the HORSE while you're at it, too!

    Suspended horse = horse not showing = horse decreases in value = trainer's stock declines = ........
    Cha-Ching!!! Of course, if a trainer/owner/rider is willing to illegally drug a horse... they might not be all that adverse to creating false records of ownership and making up a new name for the horse. :-P It really is a bummer that the unethical among us find a way around nearly everything.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #44
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    I am waiting for specifics and the town hall results.

    Just because you can't catch everybody and there are things that don't test, does not mean giving up. The most dramatic BNT examples were not for anything exotic but the same stuff wrist slaps and short vacations have been given out for over years.

    I am starting to agree about suspending the horse too-that would mean it could not continue to run for points under the same trainer at home with another just filling in at the shows.
    But not the kids...they are not full voting members, don't have care custody and control, dont sign checks and for every hard as nails JR who knows, there's 20 young kidlets that don't.

    Dont see the need to put a black mark on the competition record of a 8 year old that will google forever. They may suffer the consequences of suspended connections and mount and that's enough for a kidlet.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #45
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    Aug. 1, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post
    I am waiting for specifics and the town hall results.

    Just because you can't catch everybody and there are things that don't test, does not mean giving up. The most dramatic BNT examples were not for anything exotic but the same stuff wrist slaps and short vacations have been given out for over years.

    I am starting to agree about suspending the horse too-that would mean it could not continue to run for points under the same trainer at home with another just filling in at the shows.
    But not the kids...they are not full voting members, don't have care custody and control, dont sign checks and for every hard as nails JR who knows, there's 20 young kidlets that don't.

    Dont see the need to put a black mark on the competition record of a 8 year old that will google forever. They may suffer the consequences of suspended connections and mount and that's enough for a kidlet.
    Totally agree about the kids thing. I don't think anyone under 18 can be held accountable (whether they "know better" or not) because they are not the ones legally making the decisions. If they need a parent or guardian signature on their entry form to show, they shouldn't be held responsible.

    Suspending the horse punishes the people involved, and what horse won't love the vacation that they get while on suspension? LOL
    Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #46
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    Mar. 5, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by lrp1106 View Post
    GR410 1. a.
    "Any stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic (mood
    and/or behavior altering) substance, or drug which might affect the performance
    of a horse and/or pony (stimulants and/or depressants are defined as substances
    which stimulate or depress the cardiovascular, respiratory or central nervous
    systems), or any metabolite and/or analogue of any such substance or drug, except
    as expressly permitted by this rule."


    I believe that would make ANYTHING, naturally occurring in the body or not, illegal if used with intent to alter the horse.
    Your 'belief' has no relevance. Why would you think it does?
    All that matters is USEF's interpretation.
    There has never been a positive test for mag.
    As you noted, it occurs naturally. At present there is no standard for an allowable limit and tlll that is available Mag will never be illegal.
    Justification is that giving Mag corrects a deficiency. But without a standard there is no way to tell if the horse is or is not deficient.



  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midge View Post
    Many with 25 owners? No.
    You need to get out more !!



  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post
    Just because you can't catch everybody and there are things that don't test, does not mean giving up. The most dramatic BNT examples were not for anything exotic but the same stuff wrist slaps and short vacations have been given out for over years.
    Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that everyone should just roll over and play dead because the most offensive drugs being used don't test. And of course the set downs are for non-exotic infractions -- those are the ones for which tests are available!

    I do think some of the ideas being tossed around here could be a great start at addressing the problem, but I also think the testing capabilities need to be better at keeping up with detecting the drugs du jour (although I am aware of the fact that that would require huge chunks of change). And that's the part of the problem that I never hear mentioned.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post
    I am waiting for specifics and the town hall results.

    Just because you can't catch everybody and there are things that don't test, does not mean giving up. The most dramatic BNT examples were not for anything exotic but the same stuff wrist slaps and short vacations have been given out for over years.

    I am starting to agree about suspending the horse too-that would mean it could not continue to run for points under the same trainer at home with another just filling in at the shows.
    But not the kids...they are not full voting members, don't have care custody and control, dont sign checks and for every hard as nails JR who knows, there's 20 young kidlets that don't.

    Dont see the need to put a black mark on the competition record of a 8 year old that will google forever. They may suffer the consequences of suspended connections and mount and that's enough for a kidlet.
    I disagree. Age is no excuse. Break the rules, there will be consequences. End of story. That is how you introduce and enforce accountability.

    "Pat the horse; kick yourself" - Carl Hester



  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelico View Post
    I disagree. Age is no excuse. Break the rules, there will be consequences. End of story. That is how you introduce and enforce accountability.
    While I understand and respect your point here, when I was young and even when I was a junior rider....I had no idea of what was going on with the horses I rode. Later in life I learned that a lot of them were on a lot of drugs. It wasn't even that I had someone doing everything for me, it was just that i was young and ignorant and trusted the people around me. So asking a young rider to be held accountable for their trainer, an adult, drugging their horse seems unreasonable to me
    Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.



  11. #51
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    Dec. 4, 2002
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    I'm interested in this issue. I read the petition. I appreciate the effort, but this petition isn't "mature" enough for me to sign. I plan to follow the town hall meetings and I'm certainly willing to put my signature on the right petition. This one is too emotional and "here, here, citizens! arm yourselves with pitchforks!" You get the idea....


    3 members found this post helpful.

  12. #52
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    Jul. 10, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by S A McKee View Post
    You need to get out more !!
    Name more than five.
    *****
    You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.


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  13. #53
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    I'm with Midge here...they may have 35 or 40 horses but not near as many owners are involved for more then a very few.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post
    I'm with Midge here...they may have 35 or 40 horses but not near as many owners are involved for more then a very few.
    Yeah. Five is probably too hard. Andre was the only one I could think of who might have that many owners, but he has a multi-horse requirement so that's only a guess. And even if you included all of Scott's hangers on, I don't think you get to 25. That said, I don't know what kind of businesses Karen or Archie have on the West Coast.
    *****
    You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.



  15. #55
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    Feb. 3, 2000
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    I like the idea, but I can not sign the petition as it is. Here is MY line by line response.
    To: Board Members of the United States Equestrian Federation (USEF)

    Drugging of the performance horse has become an epidemic in the industry.
    What "industry"
    The overall horse industry?
    All USEF disciplines?
    Hunter/Jumper in both USEF/ FEI and unrecognized competition?
    USEF Hunter?

    You need to be specific. otherwise you will be treated like CHicken Little.

    The over indulgence of therapeutic drugs as well as use of illegal and “un-testable” substances are putting our horses and riders at terrible risk.
    There is nothing wrong with using therapeutic drugs for therapeutic purposes. (helping the horse recover from an injury or illness). This includes both pain killers and tranquilizers for a non-showing horse.

    There is also nothing inherently wrong with using tranquilizers for non health issues (e.g., for clipping, mane pulling or shipping) as long as the horse does not SHOW under the influence of these drugs


    The things that are wrong are
    • SHOWING horse while under the influence of NON-THERAPEUTIC drugs given for the purpose of disquising lack of soundness, or to modify behavior.
    • Using therapeutic drugs for non therapeutic purposes when SHOWING (e.g., dex and robaxin to make the horse calm)
    • SHOWING horses receiving threapeutic drugs because it has not yet recovered from an injury or illness (horse should be healthy before it shows)
    • SHOWING Horses receiving therapeutic drugs to disguise lack of soundness, or to modify behavior
    • SHOWING horses that are still under the influence of therapeutic drugs, even if they were given for legitimate (therapeutic or not) purposes


    I expect this is close to what you meant, but it isn't what you ssid, and the USEF will respond based on what you SAID, not what you meant.

    Despite having drug guidelines, rules and regulations, the USEF does not support them.
    Again, you need to be more specific. The USEF will respond that they DO support and enforce the existing rules and regulations, and they will point you to
    http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/ruleboo...Committee.aspx
    to prove it.
    You need to make it VERY clear WHERE you are claiming that thye are not following their current rules, and WHERE you are saying they need NEW rules and procedures.

    You do not hold responsible persons accountable, serve minor penalties for infractions, and even allow trainers with MULTIPLE violations to obtain year end awards.

    It is time for the USEF to step up and enforce the rules currently in place, as well as impose harsher penalties for rule offenders.
    The USEF would respond-
    • The current rules DEFINE the Trainer as the "responsible", and, as the hearings results show, the Trainers ARE held accountable.
    • The current rules do not allow "make inelegible for year end awards" as a penalty the hearing commitee is allowed to apply.



    You need to split it into multiple separate points
    • The hearing committee needs to be stricter in applying the penalties curently specified in the rules.
    • The rules need to be changed to provide for the owner and rider recieving harsher penalties in the absence of provable extenuating circumstances
    • The rules need to be chaged to provide for additional penalties (and gudelines for their application), including being inelegible for certain awards.


    Also, you need ot be grammatically consistent, you switch between second person ("you") and third person ("the USEF", "our governing body"). Pick one and stick with it.

    As members of USEF, we demand that our governing body oversee our sport in the interest of horsemanship and sportsmanship
    The USEF will claim they are already doing that.

    Excuse making by repeat offenders will not be tolerated by the masses any longer! Stand up for the welfare of our horses and govern our sport with integrity!!
    The USEF has no control of "excuse making" by repeat offendsers. They can't stop people making excuses.

    What do you mean by "will not be tolerated by the masses"? Attack them with pitchforks? This is the kind of hyperpole which makes your petition LESS credible.
    Last edited by Janet; Mar. 12, 2013 at 11:30 PM.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post
    But not the kids...they are not full voting members, don't have care custody and control, dont sign checks and for every hard as nails JR who knows, there's 20 young kidlets that don't.

    Dont see the need to put a black mark on the competition record of a 8 year old that will google forever. They may suffer the consequences of suspended connections and mount and that's enough for a kidlet.
    I don't know, I am starting to think maybe the kids should be suspended. After all nothing else has worked but if we start suspending Poopsie and Muffy, the pony moms will probably riot and shut down the offending trainers

    (yes I am joking....sort of )
    Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.



  17. #57
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    I think the trainer, the owner, and the horse should be suspended, and the trainer and the owner should have to pay a large fine. If the trainer and/or owner is a junior, then so be it, they are responsible. If you don't make them responsible, then all sorts of people will be looking for juniors to sign on entry blanks the same way they have the grooms sign on as trainer.
    ******
    "A good horse and a good rider are only so in mutual trust."
    -H.M.E.


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  18. #58
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    Ummm....minors cannot sign as trainer/person responsible for horse nor can they have legal care, custody and control. So that one ain't going to happen.

    Still don't see where going after 8 year old kids is of any benefit at all.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  19. #59
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    Sep. 8, 2005
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    First let me clear up the purpose of this petition:

    I do NOT think it is my (or any member's) responsibility to tell the USEF board how to better enforce their existing rules. I think that is their JOB, and one at which they are failing miserably. My petition is to say "HEY USEF, you are not fulfilling your obligation to its members; do SOMETHING about it." To me, it's an initial warning that the members are not satisfied.

    If after this initial petition the board continues to do NOTHING, then we as members will address exactly what needs to be done to make us satisfied. This will probably include rule changes, amendments, etc. that take time to process and go into effect.

    If we are still not satisfied? Then it is time for us to reconsider joining and supporting an organization that not only ignores its constituents, but doesn't look after the welfare of our horses.
    _______
    Secondly, yes, I have emotional investment in this cause; it's called passion. I have a passion for horses, passion for education, and a passion for my sport. So many people in the industry (owners, riders, trainers, vets, show managers, etc) have lost that passion. They are emotionally disconnected from their animals, which allow them to justify and excuse the drugging. I was hoping that this petition would re-ignite that passion in others. It's unfortunate that some people see that as making me less credible.
    _____
    Finally, if you don't like my petition, don't sign it. But I am shocked, no frustrated, that so many people complain and bemoan on COTH but won't step up to do more than hash out the same old suggestions. Why not contact me privately on how to improve the petition? Or how to solicit more support?

    I took time out of my extremely busy life to do this, and instead of saying "this it isn't good enough", take the reins and help out. Because at the end of the day, this isn't about me, my ability to write petitions, or which writing style or approach would be most effective. It's about making a change in the industry that is in the best interest of the horse.
    www.englishivyfarms.com
    Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
    All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown


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  20. #60
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    Why not attach a specific rule change proposal for increased penalties to the petition? Then I and perhaps others might sign.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



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