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  1. #41
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    Jun. 27, 2005
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    KY
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    Then why did you ask in the first place?

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"


    5 members found this post helpful.

  2. #42
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    Apr. 17, 2002
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    between the barn and the pond
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    Given that is all he has-his stall, invading it so as to torment him like a science experiment is heartless. But he's bought and paid for, right?


    4 members found this post helpful.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    May. 19, 2012
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    61

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    I asked for the input of COTH because I wanted to know if anyone had any suggestions. I continued the conversation because I was and am genuinely interested in different training methodologies. I learned something from this thread and by continuing I hope to learn more.

    Once again, he wasn't tormented by it. He likes it better than his jolly ball now and had played it to death in less than 24 hours. The next time I have a milk jug, he'll get a new toy.

    A science experiment has more animal welfare constraints on it than many training operations. As for heartless, I'm sure there are many more universally decried practices that deserve that adjective. I don't believe hanging a new toy is heartless, torture, or perpetual torment.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  4. #44
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    Apr. 17, 2002
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    between the barn and the pond
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    Good night and good luck.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2004
    Location
    South Park
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    3,376

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    Quote Originally Posted by deltatime View Post

    I see an analogue between a student's locker at a school and my horse's stall. At a school, the administration owns the locker, despite the student's stuff being in it, and can do whatever it wants to the locker. My horse occupies his stall, but it is not solely his space.
    ***head/desk***


    6 members found this post helpful.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Aug. 15, 2008
    Posts
    4,589

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    I just don't even...

    Bah.

    Nevermind.
    "Aye God, Woodrow..."


    3 members found this post helpful.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Oct. 18, 2000
    Posts
    22,455

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    If you want scary things to put in the space that is not his, why don't you hang out in there?

    You're scaring the crap outta me just by your posts. God only knows what effect you have on your poor horse.
    Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
    Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
    -Rudyard Kipling


    9 members found this post helpful.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Apr. 1, 2008
    Posts
    4,558

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    Post #14:
    Flooding can be effective, if done correctly, which is difficult to do. I don't attempt it.
    this alone tells me that you are clueless. There is no acceptable method of flooding, or any way to do it correctly.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Nov. 23, 2006
    Location
    Port Perry Ontario - formerly Prodomus
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    2,364

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    Quote Originally Posted by threedogpack View Post
    Post #14:


    this alone tells me that you are clueless. There is no acceptable method of flooding, or any way to do it correctly.
    what is flooding?



  10. #50
    Join Date
    Jun. 7, 2008
    Location
    now in KCMO, and plan to stay there
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    3,169

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    That is good news that he did interact with it. There were/are better ways to accomplish your goal however, but 'whatever'. Flattening it, to me, implies he believed it to be a dangerous intruder that needed to be fought, still not exactly a 'toy'. Since he played with a stall ball before, why not get one of those for him? (If you already have installed one, I overlooked that info.)
    Last edited by sdlbredfan; Mar. 12, 2013 at 08:24 AM. Reason: typo
    Jeanie
    RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.



  11. #51
    Join Date
    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    43,132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravestrom View Post
    what is flooding?
    I psychology, flooding means overwhelming the subject with something to the point it will shut down and accept it.

    Monty Robers at one time said to tame feral horses, you put them in a box, fill it with grain and so they were caught in there and could not move and you could approach them and pet them and they would realize they were not dying after all.

    As I heard the story, one horse treated like that almost died, either from the grain suffocating it or just the fright of the flooding.
    National Geographic made a documentary with MR of that way of handling feral horses many years ago.

    People will try anything and at times get a bit carried out to prove some theory.

    Now, we started many feral horses with true, literal flooding.
    We tied them short where they could not get away and gently, let me say that again, gently, only as much as they could take without getting scared out of their wits, we would run water with a hose around them, like rain and here and there touch them with that water stream for a second, softly and again spray away from them.

    In about ten minutes, most of those horses would stand there without a care, feral horses are very smart, with water touching them, gently, all over and a person approaching and starting to touch them along with the water.
    That we did that when it was hot in the summers helped.

    You had to do it right, or you may end with a horse standing there shaking and scared, which definitely is not what you want, but one learning from the process that all kinds of things going on around them is now a part of their lives and it is ok, he is ok, won't hurt him, that humans are trying to communicate with it, not assault it.

    The most important part was that you retreated right before the horse could not stand it any more, before he reacted.
    We were teaching the horses to trust us and stand there quietly, not that we were scary and to react to us by moving.
    Teaching to move when requested, properly and quietly, without scooting away like today's rope twirlers ask horses to, comes later, once they are not tied to something, when you are holding the lead/longe line.

    Flooding works with overwhelming the fear reaction and that should teach the subject that it didn't kill him.
    Now, since terror hormones will flood the one being flooded, I would think that is never a really good method of teaching and some place to start building trust and easy cooperation from.

    Flooding would be to put someone really scared of spiders in a room full of them and expect them to "get over it".


    3 members found this post helpful.

  12. #52
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    Apr. 1, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    I psychology, flooding means overwhelming the subject with something to the point it will shut down and accept it.
    It's not about acceptance Bluey, it's about the shut down. It's about not being an active participant and flooding will often cause the subject to distrust the handler. Desensitizing is a far more effective and more humane way to teach.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  13. #53
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    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by threedogpack View Post
    It's not about acceptance Bluey, it's about the shut down. It's about not being an active participant and flooding will often cause the subject to distrust the handler. Desensitizing is a far more effective and more humane way to teach.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flooding_(psychology)

    http://www.psychologistworld.com/behavior/flooding.php



  14. #54
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    Nov. 14, 2012
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    122

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    I purchased a young horse that had lived out 24/7 and had him turned out during the day and stalled at night. He was stall walking so I installed an acrylic mirror and it stopped immediately. I put 1" plywood on the back so it could not flex if the horses pushed the wall planks a bit (when rubbing etc). He still likes to doze beside his mirro and keeps it covered with slober. Don't try it with a horse that is agressive towards other horses, place it away from feed bins, and watch the horse when you first introduce it and check over the next few days.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Jan. 2, 2006
    Location
    Dallas, NC
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    2,317

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    How about a 2 liter coke bottle with some small rocks in it? I used that for my saddlebred to keep him occupied and he loved it! Would nose it around and it would make noise. Of course he loves to make noise! Bangs on the stall grill with his front feet, plucks the metal stall grid with his teeth like a guitar, pulls and "pops" the edge of his feedbucket. *sigh*
    I want a signature but I have nothing original to say except: "STHU and RIDE!!!

    Wonderful COTHER's I've met: belleellis, stefffic, snkstacres and janedoe726.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  16. #56
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    Apr. 1, 2008
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    and? Just because it's on the net doesn't make it valid.

    here's what will happen eventually. You get something called learned helplessness.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  17. #57
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    Nov. 13, 2009
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    4,643

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    So, in summary, you have a stressed horse that is stressed because he is literally never being turned out. You do not intend to turn him out, ever. And now you want to put a bunch of disturbing crap in his stall so that he can work out his fears in the only space that is his own.

    Let's all try to act surprised when this horse develops "narcolepsy" from never feeling comfortable enough to lay down.

    I expect this horse will be utterly fried and a basket case within a few weeks. Actually, it sounds like he already is, but the OP just doesn't see it.

    Very sad.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by threedogpack View Post
    and? Just because it's on the net doesn't make it valid.

    here's what will happen eventually. You get something called learned helplessness.
    I put the links because I didn't think you really knew what that is.
    I still think so.



  19. #59
    Join Date
    May. 19, 2012
    Posts
    61

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    Okay, this is the last time I'll talk about turnout. This issue is the only one that's getting on my nerves. I cannot turn my horse out. I understand this is bad. It won't change until I go to college. Thank you for your suggestions to turn the horse out - it won't happen.

    As for flooding, Grandin found in 2007 that the wheat box method does actually offer a window of time where the horse is calmer and less aggressive, but it is very difficult to not overwhelm the subject. There are lots of bad ways to do it and only one or two good ways, and that's why it has a bad reputation.

    The horse was absolutely a basket case when he came in from three months at pasture. He got his name by kicking my trainer in the chest, twice - which is exceptionally hard to do. He wouldn't let anyone get close enough to feed him or water him. He wore his halter 24/7 because he was so headshy we weren't sure if we could catch him again if we took it off.

    After three months of near-constant stalling and consistent work, his issues have been reduced to stall-walking and not liking his ears touched. Thank you for your concern, FineAlready, but he was covered in shavings on both sides today, just like he is every day.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Nov. 24, 2006
    Posts
    1,255

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    Is this a serious post? Like, for real? A horse is locked up 24x7 and you want to put things in his stall to desensitize him? Seriously????
    Even IF this is real......Do you think that just because he was terrified of something hanging in his stall for a week, couldn't get away from it so figured out it wouldn't hurt him, when *at some point in his life hopefully* he goes outside and sees the same dang object, he's not going to be afraid???? Really!? Of COURSE he stall walks! He needs the exercise!!!!
    Kerri


    3 members found this post helpful.

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