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  1. #1
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    Default Anyone else waiting for a Totilas for breeding?

    I would love to have a Totilas in my barn but I'm waiting for a son to breed to at a more reasonable price. Does anyone one know of sons that may be presented for approval next year? I believe his first foal crop will be 3 in 2014 if I'm not mistaken.
    Last edited by Ticker; Aug. 18, 2013 at 08:10 PM. Reason: Spelling



  2. #2
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    Why not other stallions from the same line?



  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ticker View Post
    I would love to have a Totalis in my barn but I'm waiting for a son to breed to at a more reasonable price. Does anyone one know of sons that may be presented for approval next year? I believe his first foal crop will be 3 in 2014 if I'm not mistaken.
    I believe some sons from his first foal crop are expected to be presented later this year. They will be approx 2-1/2 y/o at the fall selections, which is the normal age for young stallions to get licensed.

    There are a few dozen 2011 colts listed on HorseTelex. I wonder how many of them might be contenders. One of them is from the same mare that produced the much lauded Danish stallion Sezuan (who was recently chosen to sire Woodlander Farouche's ET foals). And another one is from the mare that produced Bretton Woods and Chagall.


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  4. #4
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    Have you heard any comments about the colts from those great producing mares?



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    I believe some sons from his first foal crop are expected to be presented later this year. They will be approx 2-1/2 y/o at the fall selections, which is the normal age for young stallions to get licensed.

    There are a few dozen 2011 colts listed on HorseTelex. I wonder how many of them might be contenders. One of them is from the same mare that produced the much lauded Danish stallion Sezuan (who was recently chosen to sire Woodlander Farouche's ET foals). And another one is from the mare that produced Bretton Woods and Chagall.
    I'm going to keep my eye out for the colt out of the Don Schufro mare that sired Sezuan. How exciting! Thanks for the info.


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  6. #6
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    Saw 2 totilas sons for sale in the UK. pm me if you're interested in importing or at seeing the ad.



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    I believe some sons from his first foal crop are expected to be presented later this year. They will be approx 2-1/2 y/o at the fall selections, which is the normal age for young stallions to get licensed.

    There are a few dozen 2011 colts listed on HorseTelex. I wonder how many of them might be contenders. One of them is from the same mare that produced the much lauded Danish stallion Sezuan (who was recently chosen to sire Woodlander Farouche's ET foals). And another one is from the mare that produced Bretton Woods and Chagall.
    I thought I would ask if anyone has seen any Totalis sons being prepared for stallion selections?



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ticker View Post
    I'm going to keep my eye out for the colt out of the Don Schufro mare that sired Sezuan. How exciting! Thanks for the info.
    Does he have a name?



  9. #9
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    Ticker: it's T-O-T-I-L-A-S. I am the worst speller on COTH, but (imho) if you are interested in breeding to a horse, it's nice to know how to spell his name . Especially after several posters have (diplomatically) included the proper spelling in their posts...

    As for sons of Totilas: personally, I'm not going to get all excited about a stallion's sons till I have been shown he can produce quality from average (or even -- gasp -- below average) mares.

    So far Totilas has not demonstrated this ( at least from what I can tell and from the feedback coming from our German COTHers).

    I can almost guarantee that at least afew of his sons will be licensed when the time comes, but this isn't going to (necessarily) prove HIS quality. Instead, it will show how well he is/was being handled/promoted.

    His first few years at stud in Germany T's team were able to cherry-pick from the finest mares available; mares who were proven to produce quality pretty much no matter what.

    In addition, no matter how we like to think that the stallion licensing/approval process is conducted in a fair & level way, any grown-up who has been in the horse judging world (or dog judging world for that matter...) for any length of time knows better. We accept the fact that people are people and if a horse is owned by someone like Paul S., they are going to have quite abit of an edge over a stallion owned by...let's say...ME!

    Stallions can and are "made" by smart owners/handlers; if not made than certainly helped a great deal. This isn't just in the WB world and not just in this case -- there are plenty of examples out there.

    It's how savvy horsebreeding business is done. And in the case of T., he is just simply WAY too high-profile and WAY too "beloved" to fail. Not to mention all those ticked off people who paid an arm & a leg to breed to him and ended up with foals who weren't the quality they were expecting.

    Even though, based on the general quality of his foals thus far, he has not shown himself to be particularly outstanding as a sire, people are STILL enamored with the guy. He IS a very striking horse, and he is owned by smart, well-off folks who know how to work all of this to an advantage.

    It could be T. will never set hoof in an arena again, but the mythology & presence of the horse will continue. His handlers will make sure of it.

    T. will get every single possible advantage there is to succeed as a sire.

    Does that mean he is/will be a good sire? Well, that is a discussion for another day. Personally (so far) I think one could take many of the outstanding mares who have been bred to T. and breed them to another stallion with a similar pedigree and get foals of the same quality that T. seems to be producing.

    But they wouldn't have HIS brand...

    The way this is playing out so far (and he may surprise me) I'm guessing that, like Secretariat, even if T. does turn out to be a bust as a sire it will not be blasted from the roof-tops.

    The stats will be there, but there will be no headlines saying "T proves BUST as Sire!!" After all, "bust" in his case would mean he just turned out to be average. Everyone had/has such high expectations. Coupled with all the publicity on his sales price and that (to me) ridiculously over-priced stud fee, his average-ness it will never be pointed it out TOO blatantly. And chances are the public will assist in this -- nobody likes heroes to fail.

    Instead, in 10-20+ yrs or so, after all the hoop-a-la has died down, breeders will begin to look at Totilas's genetic legacy with a more balanced eye. As it turned out, Secretariat was a solid producer of broodmares and did sire some fine race horses. If he had been anyone but Secretariat, he really had a pretty nice record as a sire.

    I think the same will be said for T. He has a solid pedigree for sure and it could well be his sons by some of these world-class producing mares will actually be better sires than their sire.

    But is it because T. sired them? Again, I would argue that a similar pedigree coupled with the same quality of mares, would produce just as well.

    I know T. has a full sister in training w/Gal -- or am I wrong about that? She (apparently) is not quite the quality of her brother, or just isn't showing yet.

    I wonder if they have bred her...say, to Don S., ....


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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    As for sons of Totilas: personally, I'm not going to get all excited about a stallion's sons till I have been shown he can produce quality from average (or even -- gasp -- below average) mares.
    I'm not a breeder, but I do have a bit of a working knowledge of genetics and heredity, so I'm curious about the following:

    1. Why would breeders use average or below average mare in their breeding programs?

    2. Why would breeders expect a stallion to produce ANY high quality offspring from average to below average mares, let alone be able to produce high quality offspring from such mares on a consistent basis?

    Are there really breeders who think it's reasonable to expect it to work this way, and that if it doesn't, they blame the stallion and call him a failure in the breeding shed?


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  11. #11
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    I like his temperament and I like that he was/ is competing. I like his sire. I don't like other stallions currently available from his sire. I like the way he was bred to increase the power in his backend thru his Dam. Something that is getting lost in many younger stallions where people see only flashy front ends, no power in the backend and a temperament that requires a professional. Yes, his rider is exceptional, but the horse has talent that cannot be denied.

    I think that in the grandsire position, he can add diversity to a good breeding program. I have bred my mares, in the past, to a 'son of' stallion to get particular bloodlines and I have yet to be disappointed.
    The dam line of the 'son of' stallion is critical and the most important part of the equation to me, which is why I am most interested in the great opinions of those who have the opportunity to see these young stallions and in their wisdom on the dam lines.


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  12. #12
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    I really hope no one will take this in a bad way... but I think it was agreed in another post that this stallion's name was Totilas. I am not english speaking, so I am very kind usually on spelling etc as I am far from having a good written level of english, but a name is a name. Sorry to the OP I don't want to upset you at all. I really believe it is probably just a misspelling, but I had to say it.
    Les Écuries d'Automne, Québec, Canada
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ynl063w View Post
    I'm not a breeder, but I do have a bit of a working knowledge of genetics and heredity, so I'm curious about the following:

    1. Why would breeders use average or below average mare in their breeding programs?

    2. Why would breeders expect a stallion to produce ANY high quality offspring from average to below average mares, let alone be able to produce high quality offspring from such mares on a consistent basis?

    Are there really breeders who think it's reasonable to expect it to work this way, and that if it doesn't, they blame the stallion and call him a failure in the breeding shed?
    Top mares are few and far between, the majority of mares bred are somewhere along the bell curve and hopefully most are to the right of center. But the average inspected WB is still way above the average uninspected, not breed for sport, mare. Like saying the average student at Stanford.
    Traditionally, they would expect a stallion to improve on a group of average mares before he was allowed to breed the good mares. Genetically, they are looking for positive (to sport) and dominate traits. Of course not all traits are dominate and recessive but they are looking for an improvement. Now, if a stallion is bred to some outstanding mares and comes up with eh foals then you conclude that he may not be positively prepotent, genetically.
    Of course there is always room for discussion on what makes a great GP dressage horse and if you can see this in a foal, or if they flashy foals will top out at PSG and another type go on to GP but that is another discussion.


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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoicfish View Post
    Top mares are few and far between, the majority of mares bred are somewhere along the bell curve and hopefully most are to the right of center. But the average inspected WB is still way above the average uninspected, not breed for sport, mare. Like saying the average student at Stanford.
    Traditionally, they would expect a stallion to improve on a group of average mares before he was allowed to breed the good mares. Genetically, they are looking for positive (to sport) and dominate traits. Of course not all traits are dominate and recessive but they are looking for an improvement. Now, if a stallion is bred to some outstanding mares and comes up with eh foals then you conclude that he may not be positively prepotent, genetically.
    Of course there is always room for discussion on what makes a great GP dressage horse and if you can see this in a foal, or if they flashy foals will top out at PSG and another type go on to GP but that is another discussion.
    Interesting. Although I'm not sure I'm buying that top mares are fewer and farther between than are top stallions. I could believe that the percentage of high quality stallions (compared to average to below average stallions) out there is higher than the same percentage for mares because the average to below average stallions are likely to be gelded, removing them from the gene pool. A mare gets to keep her uterus regardless of her quality (or lack thereof).

    Using your logic, why wouldn't breeders be willing to use a top mare on an average to below average stallion, with the assumption that the mare should be good enough to overcome the stallion's shortcomings?


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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spike View Post
    I really hope no one will take this in a bad way... but I think it was agreed in another post that this stallion's name was Totilas. I am not english speaking, so I am very kind usually on spelling etc as I am far from having a good written level of english, but a name is a name. Sorry to the OP I don't want to upset you at all. I really believe it is probably just a misspelling, but I had to say it.
    I doesn't bother me. I asked this question months ago, no one complained about the spelling then so I didn't notice it. I also suspect that I will, occasionally mis-spell something in the future.


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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ynl063w View Post
    Interesting. Although I'm not sure I'm buying that top mares are fewer and farther between than are top stallions. I could believe that the percentage of high quality stallions (compared to average to below average stallions) out there is higher than the same percentage for mares because the average to below average stallions are likely to be gelded, removing them from the gene pool. A mare gets to keep her uterus regardless of her quality (or lack thereof).

    Using your logic, why wouldn't breeders be willing to use a top mare on an average to below average stallion, with the assumption that the mare should be good enough to overcome the stallion's shortcomings?
    A top stallion is going to be able to breed a lot of mares if popular enough to get them, good quality or not. A top quality mare, even with ET has a limited amount of offspring she can produce, so her offspring may be considered 'rare' when compared to that of a top quality stallion. Totilas attracted some top quality mares whose offspring may be of particular interest.

    A top quality mare may be able to overcome a stallions shortcomings in the same way a top stallion may be able to overcome a mares short comings. It just a lot harder to find these mares unless their offspring start getting attention, and then, the stallion gets the credit anyway.
    Just my thoughts.


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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ticker View Post
    A top stallion is going to be able to breed a lot of mares if popular enough to get them, good quality or not. A top quality mare, even with ET has a limited amount of offspring she can produce, so her offspring may be considered 'rare' when compared to that of a top quality stallion. Totilas attracted some top quality mares whose offspring may be of particular interest.
    Just my thoughts.
    It's certainly true that a stallion can produce more offspring than a mare, but I'm not sure that addresses the issue of expecting quality offspring from average to below average mares.

    I've also read thoughts on this forum from people who believe that the mare contributes more to the offspring than does the stallion, based on factors such as uterine environment, mitochondrial DNA, and the fact that the mare is the one who raises the foal. Based on this, I would think that breeders would avoid at all costs using mares that are merely average or below average, but that doesn't seem to be the case based on Kyzteke's post.


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  18. #18
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    It's hard to not breed the 'average' mare since the vast majority of mares in any population are 'average', just as the vast majority in any species population is 'average'. This is why I try to pay attention to successful mare lines. There are many breeders on this forum whose vast knowledge on the subject would be far more useful than my limited experience.
    However, If a mare produces 'exceptional' offspring with different stallions, she most likely represents a mare line that I would like in my breeding program. Lorretta comes to mind as a mare many breeders would recognize from the 'Hit' stallions.

    I have 'average' mares in my program just like everyone else. I look for stallions out of exceptional mare lines in the hopes that if I get a filly, she will inherit some of those 'exceptional' qualities.



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ynl063w View Post
    Interesting. Although I'm not sure I'm buying that top mares are fewer and farther between than are top stallions. I could believe that the percentage of high quality stallions (compared to average to below average stallions) out there is higher than the same percentage for mares because the average to below average stallions are likely to be gelded, removing them from the gene pool. A mare gets to keep her uterus regardless of her quality (or lack thereof).

    Using your logic, why wouldn't breeders be willing to use a top mare on an average to below average stallion, with the assumption that the mare should be good enough to overcome the stallion's shortcomings?
    As Ticker replied, because a mare has a limited amount of offspring, you wouldn't want to waste it on a test. But yes, she should improve the offspring.

    And I think this is a matter of degrees. I doubt any serious breeder expects either a mare or stallion when bred to an average nag and come up with a super star. They are suppose to improve the offspring That is the test.
    And your question about why do people breed average mares, well, by definition, the majority of the population is average! It wouldn't work very well if there were only 200 WB babies born every year (the mares on the far right).
    Plus, many times quality is not an absolute idea. Breed a mare with the "right" nick and you get a amazing result but she may have had average foals before then even with brilliant stallions. The cross is a huge part in creating good horses. Corde became the legend when he was put to Holst mares, he was not as successful when bred to SF mares.
    It is like a recipe of sorts, some things are good on their own but horrible when put together or synergistic together.
    No animal is faultless or couldn't be improved. It is just lining everything up.

    And of course there may be as many top mares as top stallion. There isn't that many top stallions either. There are more average stallions -by definition of the term average. But because of the testing process, the males are more heavily scrutinized as opposed to the mares. At the end of the day, it is how they produce and that takes offspring.
    Interesting. Although I'm not sure I'm buying that top mares are fewer and farther between than are top stallions
    I never said they are fewer and farther than stallions, just said they few and far... as are the stallions.
    Last edited by stoicfish; Aug. 18, 2013 at 10:56 PM.



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ticker View Post
    It's hard to not breed the 'average' mare since the vast majority of mares in any population are 'average', just as the vast majority in any species population is 'average'. This is why I try to pay attention to successful mare lines. There are many breeders on this forum whose vast knowledge on the subject would be far more useful than my limited experience.
    However, If a mare produces 'exceptional' offspring with different stallions, she most likely represents a mare line that I would like in my breeding program. Lorretta comes to mind as a mare many breeders would recognize from the 'Hit' stallions.

    I have 'average' mares in my program just like everyone else. I look for stallions out of exceptional mare lines in the hopes that if I get a filly, she will inherit some of those 'exceptional' qualities.
    This kind of proves my point. Average fillies are more likely to be allowed to contribute to the gene pool at some point because they are not "culled" at a young age the way average colts are. An average colt is highly likely to be gelded at a young age and therefore cannot be used for breeding. An average filly gets to keep her uterus for her entire life, making it likely that someone, at some point in her lifetime, might choose to breed her simply because it's possible (and she's cheaper and more accessible than her higher quality counterparts).

    The statement "It's hard to not breed the 'average' mare since the vast majority of mares in any population are 'average'" is odd to me, because the second part of that statement applies to male horses too (the vast majority are average). If this were true, it should follow that it would be "hard not to breed to average stallions" too. But that's not true, because most average male horses are gelded and simply CAN't be used for breeding.

    Choosing to not use use something in a breeding program because it is average shouldn't be hard, no matter if it is a stallion OR a mare.


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