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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep. 11, 2003
    Location
    Amish Country, PA
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    286

    Default SOs, how to deal with the disasters bred?

    I was recently searching for horses for sale by a particular stallion whose offspring are quite a nice type.

    I stumbled across one for almost give away prices and opened the pictures and videos the breeder (who is not the SO) posted on a popular sales site. It was a youngster (older than weanling age) with something MAJORLY wrong with its hind end. It was incredibly post legged and its pastern was so extremely bent that its fetlocks were almost touching the ground in the conformatoin shot, and were hitting the ground in the videos. I immediately tried to find pictures of the dam, wondering where that horrible hind end came from or if it was badly windswept, or maybe something that went untreated.

    Just curious WWYD as damage control if you had your stallions name attached to an offspring with huge conformational issues posted up for the world to see? All it takes is one horse for the rumors to start that Mr Studly has thrown offspring with DSLD, or parrot mouth, or club foot, or whatever. If it was a genetic and testable trait, would you have your boy tested and post that info, or?
    Last edited by Yowsa; Mar. 10, 2013 at 10:48 AM.
    "Hell, when I move my things go in boxes and I always make sure and bubble wrap my dog feces so it don't get broke." runwayz



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr. 9, 2012
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    NYC=center of the universe
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    1,917

    Default

    I did wonder if anybody would answer this one, it's got me very curious...
    Born under a rock and owned by beasts!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan. 2, 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,189

    Default

    Well what *could* you do? You can't ask that they take the pictures down or threaten them with defamation. I figure if a mare owner doesn't realize it takes two to tango, well, you can't fix stupid. However, if I saw more than one or two offspring from my stallion with problems, then I'd think seriously about keeping him as a stallion (caveat - I dont, however, own a stallion - so maybe that's wishful thinking on my part).


    3 members found this post helpful.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar. 12, 2006
    Location
    Western South Dakota
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    Default

    I don't think there is a whole lot you could do, other than buy the youngster and let it be a pasture ornament.

    This youngster has a Mother, too, but of course people tend to forget that!

    A wise breeder once told me, "The mare gets the "credit" and the stallion ALWAYS gets the "blame".


    4 members found this post helpful.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun. 16, 2007
    Posts
    1,828

    Default

    If I saw one I would wonder about care and birth issues...being compromised from birth can mess up a young horse. What you described can be caused by birth position and growth issues or injury and disease. I had a septic filly who was a mess...she would not grow out of her problems but they had nothing to do with the stallion. She ended up with septic arthritis and was euthanized but other issues can make a youngster unbalanced like being windswept as a foal. I saw another mare who was premature, windswept and then got pneumonia...she didn't "grow out of" her challenging start. She couldn't be approved but she is a lovely family horse. Something as simple as poor farrier care at the wrong time in growth can affect a horse forever. Not the stallions fault. PatO


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul. 3, 2012
    Location
    Twin Cities
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    2,026

    Default

    Which is why good SO only breeds to approved mares. I realize this only reduces risk of a disaster, but I am always shocked by places with a nice stallion that breed to whatever comes down the pike.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun. 22, 2009
    Location
    California
    Posts
    371

    Default

    The situation you describe when the muscles attatched to the tendons actually extend further down the leg than normal. It is not hereditary or nutritional but is an embryologic anaomaly. They can be pasture ornaments until they break down so badly they have to be put down. The seller in this case probably does not realise what is occuring and should be informed.
    Cindy Bergmann
    Canterbury Court
    559-903-4814
    www.canterbury-court.com


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb. 7, 2003
    Posts
    643

    Default

    First, disasters happen in breeding. However, I have to caution that just because a horse is post legged and has low pasterns does NOT mean it has DSLD. Please be careful throwing that term around, so you don't damage a stallion or mare's reputation. We have a mare that has the hind leg described and was diagnosed with a too long deep digital flexor tendon as a foal. The tendon did not support the the sesmoid bones correctly. She did not know she had bad leg conformation and has grown up to be a very athletic jumper with bad hind leg conformation. Is that hind leg structure desirable, no, but beauty is as beauty does.
    Judy
    Sylvan Farm~Breeding for Performance
    Ramzes SF, approved GOV and Belgian http://sylvanfarm.com
    USSHBA Steering Committe member


    2 members found this post helpful.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun. 11, 2004
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    Still here ~ not yet there
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    Default

    Without seeing pics of the foal in question it could be this was a problem that simply wasn't addressed at birth or truly a question of dropped pasterns. What people need to realize is that ANY stallion who produces enough babies is going to produce some clunkers. That is just the law of averages with ANY stallion. There will be culls. But if you only see one, it shouldn't really bug you or put you off the stallion. As everyone here has mentioned, horses have 2 parents.

    As far as "damage control", I was in a similar situation when I bred Kinor to a very nice Arab mare, but one with a rotated foreleg. I was hoping Kinor would "fix it" because otherwise the mare was lovely and it was a good cross. Unfortunately one o/o 3 did get that same leg/foot. She was sweet and pretty, but NOT suited for endurance. The woman who bred her really didn't want to market her, because of that.

    So I actually took her and marketed her a "just" a trail horse. She's 4 now and her owner adores her. She is painted (her owner is an artist) over and over again, has learned a bunch of tricks and carries her rider safely on the trail 2-3 x a month. And she's never taken a wrong step. But I knew it wasn't Kinor who was the source of the issue; it was the mare.

    And I was not shy about saying that. If I had NOT been able to do this, I would approach the seller and ask if they would explain more in the ad about the (obvious) deformity, so people did not immediately jump on the stallion bashing float.


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  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar. 12, 2006
    Location
    Western South Dakota
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hippolyta View Post
    Which is why good SO only breeds to approved mares. I realize this only reduces risk of a disaster, but I am always shocked by places with a nice stallion that breed to whatever comes down the pike.
    THIS ^^. Many years ago I had a very close friend who just loved a certain stallion and wanted a foal by him from her mare. Her mare was a beautiful AQHA mare with very good bloodlines. But, she had a front foot that turned in. My friend had been told the mare was injured as a foal and honestly, it did look like it could have been an injury. However, when the mare foaled, the foal had the EXACT same turned in foot as the mare. My friend did not have the resources to do surgery on the foal nor the knowledge to get the right king of corrective trimming/shoeing done so the foal grew into a horse with a very crooked fetlock.

    And for years after, more than one person mentioned how "so and so Stallion" produced crooked legged foals.

    The foal did make a nice trail horse, but I always think how it could have ended up in a feed lot.
    Last edited by NoDQhere; Mar. 10, 2013 at 10:07 AM. Reason: Forgot something



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug. 15, 2010
    Posts
    1,609

    Default

    Even breeding to approved mares can result in a disaster, it is just the law of breeding averages. A friend bred a high scoring mare (inspection high point) to a lovely WB stallion, all within a respected WB registry. Result was a very funky, very small foal who was never right (in the back, in the hind legs, etc). SO use to post pics of all the foals, but that one never made it to the websites or ads. Sometimes it happens - two great parents does not guarantee a great offspring. Not much the SO can do, other then have as many nice babies on the ground as possible so it is clear the "disaster" is not the norm.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2004
    Posts
    7,538

    Default

    when you guys say "breed to approved mares only" what does that mean? do stallion owners go visit the mares in question? do research on their bloodlines etc?



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep. 11, 2003
    Location
    Amish Country, PA
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    Default

    Sure, nobody knows what the problem is, it could be anything listed above. But honestly IF I owned a stallion whose offspring ended up with a club foot, parrot mouth, or any number of other things that could be caused by any number of factors, I would likely want to address it head on. Yes, I'm certain it was a fluke, the mare, something untreated, etc. but still....as a couple of you said, people are quick to blame the stud, thus I was curious if SOs would take any steps to put people at ease.
    "Hell, when I move my things go in boxes and I always make sure and bubble wrap my dog feces so it don't get broke." runwayz



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar. 11, 2006
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,220

    Default

    when you guys say "breed to approved mares only" what does that mean? do stallion owners go visit the mares in question? do research on their bloodlines etc?

    Because of my job I do not stand my stallion to public stud; however, I've been approached by more than a handful of mare owners asking to "still" breed to my stallion. I can tell you that even if he were standing to the public, I would not accept the following mares (or send semen to) no matter how nice in their own right for any reason - paint, stock-type, appaloosa, nor would I breed to very specific bloodlines within my breed. I also have a very good working knowledge of my breed and would require pictures and video if I have not seen the mare in person. Now does anyone think I expect to ever make money with my stallion? Good Lord I hope not. I have very specific goals with my stallion. I do not need to stand him to the public to attain those goals; so, I also will not breed to just any mare both for the reason of not wanting the risk of producing something that could harm his reputation (if he had one) and because I believe it's irresponsible for many other reasons. Because of my passion for the breed and some of the known pitfall of the industry and the breed I will remain very selective should I ever breed to an outside mare and I have no problem expressing to those who inquire as to why or the specifics.
    Ranch of Last Resort
    www.annwylid.com


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