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  1. #81
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    Jun. 20, 2009
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    Hunterdon County NJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    I have no problem with Camelot's business model either. I do have a problem with the constant pleas to save the pretty horsies, that flood FB and elsewhere but it is good intentioned I guess. I think people end up with horses that they are unprepared for out of fear of what will happen if they don't save it.
    Bingo. Exactamundo. And I know more than a few scenarios along those lines.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Nov. 15, 2005
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    NY
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    I am aware of about a dozen horses who were 'saved' from Camelot.
    The 2 that were the 'nicest' who were supposedly rode through and broke and were really pretty... one ended up having a fractured ankle that someone had probably drugged her up to not be off on, she had to be put down... the other, whoo-ee someone did a number on him and he will never be rideable. He is handsome, so thankfully where he is he can be an attractive ornament.. otherwise he might end up getting more of the treatment that caused him to be so worried to begin with.
    The rest of them were a rag tag bunch and turned out to honestly be nice horses.

    I agree with Laurie, I don't love the begging and I do worry about the horses I see back for sale on Craigslist way too soon [ie a matter of weeks in some cases]. I REALLY hate when people are poo-pooing obvious to the naked eye 'issues' on the Facebook pages.

    I think anyone who buys a horse from any sale, online or in person at an auction, had better be prepared to deal with whatever that horse has goin' on, and also not expect him/her to fit into their idea of what they want it to do. My concern has always been and still is that too many are not as capable as they think they are, and not as prepared as they should be.

    The pony in the OP immediately struck me as 'WOW!' [as a smaller adult rider, that is JUST what I would be lookin' for if I was, in fact, lookin']... and I immediately thought 'wonder what's wrong with her'.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Aug. 21, 2002
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    Ontario, Canada
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    594

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    Mthere is the trouble There is no trust, but a.rather bizzare expectationthat someonecelse will solve the problem


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Jun. 1, 2002
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    Indiana
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    It's entirely possible that nothing is wrong with her.

    Let's say someone bred her and intended to do something with her but never got around to it. Maybe they died, or lost their job, or they were giving her away for free to someone they thought was a nice person. There are lots of people that will pick up and transport free horses to auctions for a fee. Sometimes the owners know where they are going, sometimes they don't.

    Broodmares, even nice ones, don't draw high prices at auctions unless they have really really good bloodlines. They aren't broke to ride and sometimes breeders drop them off because they can't get them in foal anymore.

    It's also possible that she rears and goes over backwards when the drugs wear off.

    In my area if she were ridden in she'd bring about $250 as long as she looked like she'd make a nice kids pony.

    If she were led in she'd bring about $50.

    For me, if I were flipping horses, I would take a chance on her if she were led in as not broke to ride as I would assume she was an unwanted broodmare that didn't catch and had never been broke which would lessen the chances of her being nuts under saddle



  5. #85
    Join Date
    Dec. 12, 2004
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    Massachusetts
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    I REALLY hate when people are poo-pooing obvious to the naked eye 'issues' on the Facebook pages.

    I think anyone who buys a horse from any sale, online or in person at an auction, had better be prepared to deal with whatever that horse has goin' on, and also not expect him/her to fit into their idea of what they want it to do. My concern has always been and still is that too many are not as capable as they think they are, and not as prepared as they should be.
    These are two really good points. I always go a little cross-eyed when some horse has a giant knee, and the do-gooders on the Camelot Facebook page are going "OMG my horse's knee does that every time he's on a trailer for more than 15 min, it's no big deal." While yes, a big knee CAN be "No big deal" it can also be a "very big deal" and the person shopping for a future eventer should not be thinking along the lines of "no big deal.'

    I bought a little mule off of the AC4H site. Although they put a saddle on him and a big man, he was clearly not actually broke to ride. He arrived dripping pus from his Strangles, and very nearly feral.

    Not an issue for me because I have a quarantine area, strong mesh fencing, and time and patience. He came around quickly with proper handling, I got him started properly under saddle, and sent him off for 30 days to make him more appealing when I decided to free lease him. He's been with his ammy leaser for almost two years now, being the star of the show and taking perfect care of her and her hubby, but he could have stayed here on my acres of pasture if something hadn't worked out.

    In very stark contrast....there are frequently posts on my local craigslist that go along the lines of: "Just saved a horse from slaughter who will be shipped up from NJ in three days....does anyone have a spare stall or shed I can put it in?! Also looking for help with training, or if anyone has any horse supplies to donate, or wants to donate some money for vet fees!!!"


    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2007
    Location
    Michigan
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    10,269

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoForAGallop View Post
    These are two really good points. I always go a little cross-eyed when some horse has a giant knee, and the do-gooders on the Camelot Facebook page are going "OMG my horse's knee does that every time he's on a trailer for more than 15 min, it's no big deal." While yes, a big knee CAN be "No big deal" it can also be a "very big deal" and the person shopping for a future eventer should not be thinking along the lines of "no big deal.'
    Someone who goes "shopping for a future eventer" on Facebook pages for auction horses and who takes at face value statements of random Facebook posters that a big knee is "no big deal" deserves what they get. Likewise someone who is suddenly going begging for a stall, supplies, vet, etc...it is not the rest of the world's job to go around protecting people from their own impulse buys. The horse is sitting in a feedlot pen, so their situation has not deteriorated. Winding up back at an auction? Well, it happens, the horse is no worse off than before (as clearly no one but the totally unprepared wanted it). Or they have the horse put down, which is supposedly what the no-slaughter-ever crowd wants in the first place.

    I'm not quite sure what some people want--slaughter is bad, auctions are bad, offering auction horses via rescues/'rescue brokers' is bad because someone unprepared might end up buying one (someone unprepared might buy a horse off any one of the regular horse-classified sites, too, as most reasonable sellers don't do FBI background checks so they know a home is really totally absolutely perfect--faith is part of selling because there are no guarantees.) What is supposed to be done in that case with horses where there aren't perfect homes with owners who have 20+ years of experience and a professional set-up on their own property and at least one top-notch trainer on call 24/7? Seriously, how is other peoples' failure to plan everyone else in the world's problem? You don't own the horse, you're not willing to buy the horse, you don't want the horse getting sold to the meat man, you want to protect the sympathy buyer from themselves...so the feed lot is supposed to feed them forever? Pay to destroy and dispose of them because you don't approve of the potential buyers?


    5 members found this post helpful.

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Apr. 1, 2008
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    4,536

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    I agree with Laurie, I don't love the begging and I do worry about the horses I see back for sale on Craigslist way too soon [ie a matter of weeks in some cases]. I REALLY hate when people are poo-pooing obvious to the naked eye 'issues' on the Facebook pages.

    I think anyone who buys a horse from any sale, online or in person at an auction, had better be prepared to deal with whatever that horse has goin' on, and also not expect him/her to fit into their idea of what they want it to do. My concern has always been and still is that too many are not as capable as they think they are, and not as prepared as they should be.
    I hate the begging when anyone (rescue or not) takes on a known rehab case. My feelings are, if you can't afford to fix it (health or behavior), perhaps you shouldn't have taken it. If your business model is rescue, before you start it, you'd better figure a way to fund it. It feels like a cold way to handle a living being but it's how I run the dog stuff. I'll take on a dog that is place-able with training, put my own cash into vet issues, put the training on him/her and then place him. If I were to take on horse rescue and placement, it would be the same. There would be expenses up front that I'd better have the money to cover.

    I also agree that there are horses at auctions with issues and some that are not, simply got a bad deal handed to them. BUT, you'd better have an eye and you'd better come into it expecting the worst and hoping for the best with an exit plan in mind.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Feb. 22, 2009
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    Wisconsin
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    Let me share my pretty auction pony story.

    At a local auction I saw a person ride through a slightly nervous fat hairy welsh cross. I decided that I would gamble on him and bid and won. I always assume that they are drugged at least a bit. Well he was drugged more then I thought. We picked him IP the next day and all the sedation wore off, and after 2 hours we caught him in the stall. Someone had abused him to the point that it took 2 months to get him to not crawl up the wall in his stall when we went in. He never calmed down under saddle and would dump you fast as could be. He was one of the most talented jumpers I ever saw. Free jumped 4 foot with room to spare. Sadly he never came around. I spent months with him, and learned a very good lesson on when to cut my losses. Shame. He was very cute.http://s297.beta.photobucket.com/use...l?sort=3&o=109
    I now am very careful on nice looking ponies and horses at auction.



  9. #89
    Join Date
    Jun. 30, 2006
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    SF Bay Area, California
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    I think anyone who buys a horse from any sale, online or in person at an auction, had better be prepared to deal with whatever that horse has goin' on, and also not expect him/her to fit into their idea of what they want it to do. My concern has always been and still is that too many are not as capable as they think they are, and not as prepared as they should be.

    The pony in the OP immediately struck me as 'WOW!' [as a smaller adult rider, that is JUST what I would be lookin' for if I was, in fact, lookin']... and I immediately thought 'wonder what's wrong with her'.
    Well said. I took a chance on a horse 2 states away because I didn't want her to go to slaughter. The only thing "wrong" with her was she had no manners and at 7 years old was very green. Oh, and she was pregnant! Oops, was not prepared for two.

    However, I got really lucky. That green horse that someone threw away is now in the ribbons as an eventer and jumper.

    Not every cute horse in a bad spot has something "wrong" with it!
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg


    5 members found this post helpful.

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Apr. 21, 2008
    Location
    Somewhere in Texas YEEHAW!
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    850

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    I used to work at a livery stable that got all their trail horses from auctions. I can't recall a single one we ever got that was lame beyond use for at least walking down the trail, or crazy to the point they couldn't be ridden. Some definitely took awhile to make it as "dude" horses for the beginners but after plenty of literal miles, they usually were fine. Most of the horses we got just weren't all that well broke. It wasn't beyond the realm of what we were able to handle and train, but for your average backyard horseperson they were too much to handle. Some of my favorite horses ever have come from low end auctions!
    OTTB CONNECT
    FB group for all things related to non racing Thoroughbreds.. Click here to join ~~~> OTTB CONNECT


    4 members found this post helpful.

  11. #91
    Join Date
    Sep. 7, 2009
    Location
    Lexington, KY
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    I hate the begging too. The problem is...it works. The animal shelter in the next county to me has a "rescue" that comes in and takes photos of all the dogs and cats and posts them on facebook. They all have a "will die on date" with their photo. The will die on date invariably gets pushed out with two or more reprieves.

    I actually pulled a sheltie from this shelter and the shelter manager tells me he has a 1% kill rate and it's only for very injured or sick dogs or very aggressive dogs. I'm guessing they feel the end justifies the means. Whether it's ethical or not is another question.

    However, I do think a broker is a different story. They are using the kill truck is coming in order to line their own pockets. And clearly it works. Let the buyer beware.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #92
    Join Date
    Apr. 2, 2003
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    4,612

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    I guess I have a unique perspective on this since I very nearly took a horse home from Camelot this weekend.

    I was able to find out enough about the horse before I needed to pick her up, and Camelot allowed me to back out and she went to someone more able to accomodate her situation.

    The fact of the matter is that even if they look reasonably healthy, they're there for SOME reason-- be it an unknowing but well intentioned former owner, an illness, an injury, etc. This horse happened to be well broke but had an old injury that while the owner claimed she was sound, based on a consultation with my vet we felt she probably wouldn't be long-term.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #93
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    Aug. 15, 2008
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    Couture, I can see why you gambled. Sorry he didn't work out. Nice looking pony.
    "Aye God, Woodrow..."



  14. #94
    Join Date
    Sep. 18, 2007
    Location
    FL
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    628

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    They actually sell the horses at Camelot to people that bid on them? That has not been my understanding. He sets the price and you take it or leave it.
    Camelot is an auction that happens every week. The 'house' buys a lot of horses. In a way it is price fixing.

    AFTER the sale when he has bought the horse(s) he sets a price he believes he can get. Many are way over 'slaughter price'. He also takes the 'no one wants them', puts a price and many times 'heart tugger' horses get sold for WAY more than they would bring at slaughter house and they have to transport them there. Nice biz for the dealer.
    It's a business. Anyone can go to the actual sale and pay WAY less before the 'KB' buys them. Bidding against them is a pleasure.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  15. #95
    Join Date
    Dec. 19, 2009
    Location
    Pennsylvania
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    To OP's original question, which many have answered, a lot of decent horses end up there just due to strange circumstances. They're not going to run through New Holland looking pretty, but Frank does enough business to be able to pick up enough good ones to make his business model work.

    I'm glad that someone (not Camelot) "felt so sorry" for a small horse that was run through New Holland a few years ago. Thin, dirty, and "sad looking, but cute". They didn't go to get a small horse but took him home anyway. He turned out to be poorly or not broke. She got broke, then jumping up to 2'6" but never planned on keeping him. Then my DD bought him and has taken him up through Training level eventing. There's nothing wrong with him, passed his PPE for her with flying colors, (he is even barefoot, until next week, and only because she needs to start using studs) He's never been lame, has no vices, so I can't think of any logical reason why he ended up at NH.

    So how did a 6 year old end up at New Holland? We'll never know. Someone got very sick and couldn't continue his training? Newbie bought a young horse that was beyond their knowledge and ability? He never matured to the height they wanted? Fell on hard times and couldn't find a buyer for an unbroke horse quickly enough? Someone passed away and the family didn't really know what to do with the herd? Wanted a quick sale and didn't really care what selling at New Holland could mean to a cute litle guy with a fluffy forelock and big brown eyes? It's sad that we don't know his breeding and background because people ask all the time. My daughter likes to make stuff up based on what he looks like, but I prefer to say "All we know is that he has New Holland in his pedigree".


    5 members found this post helpful.

  16. #96
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    Apr. 2, 2003
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    In the case of the 7yo mare, she was started at 4, had an injury, they bred her twice, and decided this year that breeding her was foolish because the market was down-- so she sat. They traded her for a pony, and here is where it gets gray-- I am guessing she was either not sound, or too green, for whoever they gave her to. Her condition points to basically having been a broodmare for a long time, and not really in riding shape.

    I talked to the vet about the injury and with the details we had, we felt it would be a soundness issue though the owner says it wasn't. I personally feel that if it wasn't, she was a nice enough horse to have been started back and not given away, but that was my personal choice.

    I have known a lot of nice horses to come from camelot. I do wish that people were prevented from buying them before the "nice" photos are taken, as it can reveal a lot of defects that are hidden in the "dark and sad" photos.



  17. #97
    Join Date
    Dec. 31, 2011
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    Cynthiana KY (~40 min. NE of Lexington)
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldpony66 View Post
    It's sad that we don't know his breeding and background because people ask all the time. My daughter likes to make stuff up based on what he looks like, but I prefer to say "All we know is that he has New Holland in his pedigree".
    That's a great story, OldPony! My husband would call my New Holland fixer-upper buys my "New Holland Specials". Several of them were grade horses. I would guess what they might possibly be, because many people won't look at grade horses when you are advertising them. I always put lots of pictures available and good video, and make sure to tell people that I don't KNOW what their breeding is, but based on phenotype...... I like the "New Holland in the pedigree" way of putting it too.

    All the best to you with your guy.

    Sheila
    Sheila Zeltt
    Chestnut Run Stable & Zeltt Racing Stable
    www.Zeltt.com
    Standing "Tiz Brian" at Stud, 16.1 h bay TB by Tiznow



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