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  1. #61
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    Honestly, I'm not the OP, but I've seen chips on shoulders in the ASB world and now just as big of chips here. I think I got accused of being a martini swilling pearl clutcher the other day, which if you knew me you'd fall over laughing.

    I want to know WHY, and I'll go on a limb and say the OP did as well, thank you all who addressed the question honestly without rancour. This thread has been very educational, in more ways than one :P:
    Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by mp View Post
    Also, you're not penalized for jigging at the walk or turning your horse's nose to the rail and jigging sideways to get a walk/canter transition.
    Just to be clear, mp, in certain classes (park, three-gaited, fine harness, five-gated, open saddle seat equitation) you are supposed to "jig" at the walk. It is called the Animated Walk, the rule book description for which is, "The animated walk is a highly collected gait, exhibiting much “primp” at a slow, regulated speed, with good action and animation. It should have snap and easy control. It can be either a two beat or four beat gait. It is performed with great style, elegance and airiness of motion." Only horses shown in pleasure classes, or in saddle seat pleasure equitation, are you required to do a flat walk. And then in pleasure classes you most certainly are penalized for not flat walking.

    The reason for asking the horse to move into three tracks/move to haunches in prior to a canter departure has to do with the fact that Saddlebreds are a five gaited breed. You engage the outside hind leg (the first leg to step into the canter) to assist the horse in getting the canter (instead of a slow gait or rack). Some horses that are very "slick" as we say sometimes (easily fall into a rack or even a pace) have to be kept on three tracks when they are cantering to keep the gait a three beat gait. And although not all Saddlebreds are five gaited as a trainer to keep things simple and stream lined you tend to teach all of your horses a lateral canter cue instead of the diagonal cue preferred in other disciplines. Most Saddlebreds that are "equitated" (finished equitation horses) do straight line simple changes without having to move the haunches to set up for the canter departure.

    shakeytails has, I believe, started this thread out of curiosity and looking for explanations along the lines of what I just explained to you, mp. Just because something is done differently doesn't mean it is wrong, but if you don't ask why you will never know.


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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willesdon View Post
    How about comparing Helen Langehanenburg with Carl Hester? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfZxO1K7zbI

    IMO Hester presents a softer, more relaxed picture even though the horse is not always cooperating. His hands do move, but they are always soft.
    Carl (whom I adore) is riding a smaller horse especially in comparison to his own body. The horse Helen is riding is much longer and larger, especially when considering her own frame. I am not sure you can compare the two for quality. And I love Carl.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  4. #64
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    If someone from another discipline can't watch an international dressage ride and ask a basic question without twisting knickers, I'll venture that the problem is in the responders rather than the question. All this chatter about who is qualified based on their riding is funny, really. Just a fallacious defense. Who is qualified to evaluate anyone else's qualifications?

    The most crucial issue that the OP touches upon that no one thus far has addressed is the difference between reaction and response. The horse described that is "so light and responsive to the tiniest cue" has not begun to accept the bit if one must "be careful to stay out of his mouth", imo. This sounds like bit avoidance, not responsiveness. But then as another poster points out, it is sometimes easier to have "a nice, fluid test" if you don't conquer certain basic principals.

    In theory, an upper level horse is straight, strong, forward, rhythmical, soft, collected .... blah, blah, blah. In reality, perfection is hard to come by, so we judge whether something is good enough. Training and competing a GP horse is a series of trade offs. This horse is consistently low in the poll and she makes no attempt (that I can see) to address it. It may be that a conformational issue but it still impacts the quality of every moment.
    For my tastes, this ride shows a poor trade off. It is not chopped liver by any means, but not the kind of ride I'd expect for that score.

    People will "quit riding the horse' head, or rather, quit judging a ride by the head, and seek true collection" when it can be demonstrated that these 2 issues are independent in an upper level horse ... which is to say-knowledgable observers won't quit using that as one (not the only) yardstick of quality.
    I'd more rather see a ride that is somewhat less seamless where what should be a basic issue is acknowledged and dealt with. But that is my opinion.

    And here opinions are worth what you pay for them
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  5. #65
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    I love the loopy curb, the absence of the flash nose band and the relaxed throat latch. I hate seeing tight throat latches.

    I ride like this rider..........in my dreams.



  6. #66
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    I just want to see how well you ride...., IMO of course.
    A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking. (Steven Wright)



  7. #67
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    It’s better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt.


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  8. #68
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    Well, yes, opinions here are only worth what you pay for them. But a good rider could offer a good video of them demo'ing what they prefer to see on the dressage court, I think...if only to show that it can be done. Need you be an FEI level rider? No. A simple canter serpentine on a big powerful horse, ridden well, could illustrate your point just fine. But I'm sure your camera is broken and/or there's no one to film while you ride and/or I don't know how to post such a thing and/or I don't have time to play your silly games.

    Did I miss anything? Dingo ate my FEI horse?
    A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking. (Steven Wright)


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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by MunchingonHay View Post
    I love the loopy curb, the absence of the flash nose band and the relaxed throat latch. I hate seeing tight throat latches.

    I ride like this rider..........in my dreams.
    Um. Flashes + double bridle = illegal for showing.

    I agree about the rest of it though.


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  10. #70
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    very very few riders ride well enough to make it look like the books say it should.... riding well is very very hard. i like a lot of what i see with damon hill. are there things to improve? of course. there always is. even if you are a master.

    so since nothing is perfect we have to enjoy what is correct and forgive the rest. especially when there is so much good about it

    just think for a second about what was getting such scores even 5 years ago! we have turned a corner and at least now the horses looked relaxed, supple, loose, collected etc.



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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    very very few riders ride well enough to make it look like the books say it should.... riding well is very very hard. i like a lot of what i see with damon hill. are there things to improve? of course. there always is. even if you are a master.

    so since nothing is perfect we have to enjoy what is correct and forgive the rest. especially when there is so much good about it

    just think for a second about what was getting such scores even 5 years ago! we have turned a corner and at least now the horses looked relaxed, supple, loose, collected etc.

    You know, your observation makes me begin to understand why I love watching this video and have added it to my list with Klimke, Hester, and Corsentino (who, for clarity is no upper level rider let me tell you, but like Katarine said, you don't have to ride upper level to ride correctly, and I love watching her in this particular test http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il-SDvxVNZQ ) I must be grooving on how relaxed the horse is, and how mesmerizing the rider is. It's not all about correctness.

    So mbm, from your lips to God's ears. I do hope this is the beginning of the return to dressage.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).


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  12. #72
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    I ride a lot of different horses, different breeds, different levels. Some have a lot of head and neck movement, some have less. Some really swing their backs, some not so much. The amount of movement in the hands is all dependent on the amount of movement in the horse...how much up and down and how much back and forth. The hands are to belong to the horse's mouth...hence the more movement in the horse, the more the hands will appear to move. you really can't say the 'so and so's' hands are quieter when they are riding a different horse....you would have to compare on the same horse.
    The saddleseat riders are sitting on an entirely different animal...entirely differently trained and riding in an entirely different seat...you just can't compare the two.


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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renae View Post
    The reason for asking the horse to move into three tracks/move to haunches in prior to a canter departure has to do with the fact that Saddlebreds are a five gaited breed. You engage the outside hind leg (the first leg to step into the canter) to assist the horse in getting the canter (instead of a slow gait or rack). Some horses that are very "slick" as we say sometimes (easily fall into a rack or even a pace) have to be kept on three tracks when they are cantering to keep the gait a three beat gait. And although not all Saddlebreds are five gaited as a trainer to keep things simple and stream lined you tend to teach all of your horses a lateral canter cue instead of the diagonal cue preferred in other disciplines. Most Saddlebreds that are "equitated" (finished equitation horses) do straight line simple changes without having to move the haunches to set up for the canter departure.
    This it not exactly true. While some bloodlines DO show a natural tendency towards lateral movement (therefore pacing rather than trotting), Saddlebreds are on the whole a three-gaited WTC breed. The slow gait and rack are artificial gaits, the horses are trained to do them. A horse that will eventually become a five-gaited horse still needs to have a true, 2 beat trot, but some lateral tendencies.

    A good gaited trainer could teach any breed of horse to rack and slow gait—in 1999 I saw an ad for a farm advertising a five-gaited Arabian, asking a cool $1 million for him. It was in either TNH, S&B, or another similar magazine.


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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhwr View Post
    If someone from another discipline can't watch an international dressage ride and ask a basic question without twisting knickers, I'll venture that the problem is in the responders rather than the question. All this chatter about who is qualified based on their riding is funny, really. Just a fallacious defense. Who is qualified to evaluate anyone else's qualifications?

    The most crucial issue that the OP touches upon that no one thus far has addressed is the difference between reaction and response. The horse described that is "so light and responsive to the tiniest cue" has not begun to accept the bit if one must "be careful to stay out of his mouth", imo. This sounds like bit avoidance, not responsiveness. But then as another poster points out, it is sometimes easier to have "a nice, fluid test" if you don't conquer certain basic principals.

    In theory, an upper level horse is straight, strong, forward, rhythmical, soft, collected .... blah, blah, blah. In reality, perfection is hard to come by, so we judge whether something is good enough. Training and competing a GP horse is a series of trade offs. This horse is consistently low in the poll and she makes no attempt (that I can see) to address it. It may be that a conformational issue but it still impacts the quality of every moment.
    For my tastes, this ride shows a poor trade off. It is not chopped liver by any means, but not the kind of ride I'd expect for that score.

    People will "quit riding the horse' head, or rather, quit judging a ride by the head, and seek true collection" when it can be demonstrated that these 2 issues are independent in an upper level horse ... which is to say-knowledgable observers won't quit using that as one (not the only) yardstick of quality.
    I'd more rather see a ride that is somewhat less seamless where what should be a basic issue is acknowledged and dealt with. But that is my opinion.

    And here opinions are worth what you pay for them
    I think most of the rolly eyes come from post #23 rather than the OP


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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renae View Post
    Just to be clear, mp, in certain classes (park, three-gaited, fine harness, five-gated, open saddle seat equitation) you are supposed to "jig" at the walk. It is called the Animated Walk, the rule book description for which is, "The animated walk is a highly collected gait, exhibiting much “primp” at a slow, regulated speed, with good action and animation. It should have snap and easy control. It can be either a two beat or four beat gait. It is performed with great style, elegance and airiness of motion." Only horses shown in pleasure classes, or in saddle seat pleasure equitation, are you required to do a flat walk. And then in pleasure classes you most certainly are penalized for not flat walking.
    Thanks for the clarification. My observation was based on the video of the eq class (don't know if it was pleasure or not) posted by reSomething and watching many many Arabian and HA saddleseat classes, from Class A shows up to Nationals. Arab/HA SS calls for the flat-footed walk. They often jig at the walk ... or whatever you want to call it.

    The reason for asking the horse to move into three tracks/move to haunches in prior to a canter departure has to do with the fact that Saddlebreds are a five gaited breed. You engage the outside hind leg (the first leg to step into the canter) to assist the horse in getting the canter (instead of a slow gait or rack). ... Most Saddlebreds that are "equitated" (finished equitation horses) do straight line simple changes without having to move the haunches to set up for the canter departure.
    Again, very interesting. But those sideways departures are very common in A/HA SS classes and those horse are not gaited. And the horses in the vid did them, too.

    shakeytails has, I believe, started this thread out of curiosity and looking for explanations along the lines of what I just explained to you, mp. Just because something is done differently doesn't mean it is wrong, but if you don't ask why you will never know.
    My thoughts as well. thanks again for the info.
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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by shakeytails View Post
    Coming from a saddle seat background, it is very difficult for me to watch constant hand movement. In my world a pinky wiggle on the curb or simply raising or dropping hands is all that's needed. The colt I'll be showing this year I have to be careful to stay out of his mouth because he's so light and responsive to the tiniest cue. Granted, I am not asking my horses for canter pirouettes and such.

    Comments?
    I'm surprised no one mentioned the hardwiring of the different breeds at all. Saddlebreds are reactive. Period. I don't care if you start them as a saddle seat horse, or as a dressage horse. If you move your hands on an ASB, he is going to react. Depending on how you train that reaction, you are going to get a range of results. But, if you mover your hands a lot in a short period of time, that ASB is going to react a lot in a short period of time. Probably not something you want to have happen, regardless of whether you are showing a five gaited Saddlebred, or a dressage Saddlebred.


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  17. #77
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    I think that the video is beautiful. Actually the most distracting thing about upper level dressage riders to me is the legs. They move their legs quite a bit and it distracts me. I understand that they are using them to cue the horse and obviously to ride, but they are what draws my eye.

    I am in no way critiquing the video. I will never ride to that level or that quality of horse or that high in the dressage, but I am commenting back to the op. The hands are actually quite compared to some and they are not really distracting IMO. I think that the test was lovely and I honestly love watching the videos of this horse.
    I am on my phone 90% of the time. Please ignore typos, misplaced lower case letters, and the random word butchered by autocowreck.




  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeventer View Post
    I think that the video is beautiful. Actually the most distracting thing about upper level dressage riders to me is the legs. They move their legs quite a bit and it distracts me. I understand that they are using them to cue the horse and obviously to ride, but they are what draws my eye.

    I am in no way critiquing the video. I will never ride to that level or that quality of horse or that high in the dressage, but I am commenting back to the op. The hands are actually quite compared to some and they are not really distracting IMO. I think that the test was lovely and I honestly love watching the videos of this horse.
    Just like the hands, a lot of the leg movement comes from the rider following the horse.
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  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmartAlex View Post
    I'm surprised no one mentioned the hardwiring of the different breeds at all. Saddlebreds are reactive. Period. I don't care if you start them as a saddle seat horse, or as a dressage horse. If you move your hands on an ASB, he is going to react. Depending on how you train that reaction, you are going to get a range of results. But, if you mover your hands a lot in a short period of time, that ASB is going to react a lot in a short period of time. Probably not something you want to have happen, regardless of whether you are showing a five gaited Saddlebred, or a dressage Saddlebred.

    There are breed tendencies, yes. But IME, tendencies do not mean an individual horse is "hardwired" to be one way or another. I can't speak to Saddlebreds, but I've had Arabians for many years. They've ranged from hot and reactive to very quiet and nearly bombproof. All in the same environment with the same handling.

    With some bloodlines within a breed, you can pretty much count on certain characteristics. But saying all ASBs or Arabians or QHs or whatever act this way or that way really is not accurate.
    __________________________
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  20. #80
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    I haven't read all these posts yet and I shouldn't give too much advice since I am a hunter rider but I agree with another who said still hands CAN be restrictive hands.

    In my flat work I do move my hands. One reason being that my horse is young and needs varying degrees of support and if she moves her head up to avoid contact, my hands come up, if she leans to much on my hand, I apply a bit of backward pressure then release when she gives. If she needs a reminder to stay supple, I wiggle.
    Since every horse is different, communication with each will be different as well.

    IMHO If you are getting the answers to the questions you are asking for who cares what 'language' it is in, sort of speak.



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