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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by shakeytails View Post
    Just watching this awesome horse and it was hard for me to NOT watch the rider's hands. So busy, and looks at times to be pulling on the horses mouth.

    Coming from a saddle seat background, it is very difficult for me to watch constant hand movement. In my world a pinky wiggle on the curb or simply raising or dropping hands is all that's needed. The colt I'll be showing this year I have to be careful to stay out of his mouth because he's so light and responsive to the tiniest cue. Granted, I am not asking my horses for canter pirouettes and such.

    Comments?
    Wow what a horse! I can see why you were mesmerized by the horse. So I watched the rider while listening to a Star Trek episode on Hulu, so I had no sound. What you’re seeing with the hands is elasticity. We all strive to a soft communication with our horses’ mouths so that when they stretch we give, and when they contract we take. It’s an awesome, magical give and take feeling that I can only describe as feeling like you’re both balanced on a knife edge where you won’t fall because your horse is holding you and your horse won’t fall because you’re holding him.

    Look at the video again and study the rider’s hands. There’s almost always a straight line from the horse’s mouth to her hands. The horse is never behind the vertical (his head never seems to move from vertical to behind the vertical line showing compression and tension in the neck). Instructors try to get us there by asking us to visualize breathing through the reins. If she was pulling and tugging like you though, you’d see him (the horse) run into a brick wall every time he stretched because her hands wouldn’t give. This wasn’t the case here.

    Finally, this is a lot of horse. He’s a gymnast, an acrobat, and a body builder all at once. Look at his muscle at the end of the piece, when he’s walking on a long rein. Look at how they cantered down the long sides. So her job of holding him (the knife’s edge analogy) is huge. She is holding a lot of horse.

    This is a video for study. Thank you for posting it.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).


    7 members found this post helpful.

  2. #22
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    The OP had a question, that's all.

    Actually, if you look at the times when she is not asking the horse via a half halt her hands are amazingly still - consider how well she sits that extended trot and her hands are remarkably still.

    That is certaily a beautiful horse who is calm and listening, no swishing or anxiety.
    Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique



  3. #23
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    Lovely horse and skilled rider. That never means that there are no problems. This horse is not being ridden with correct weight aids, and that, in turn, means the rider must use more restrictive bit action because the horse is slightly on the forehand. The horse's poll is not the highest portion of the neck for the most part, and the horse's head is overbent because he is being held from the bit and not pushed from the rider's seat. If you watch the rider's feet, you will see that mostly her toes point to ground rather than the heels being lowered. This means that the rider cannot properly use her seat to lift the horse into the half halt because the weight is falling onto the front of the stirrups...again, a symptom of an on-the-forehand horse.

    It does not take a Grand Prix rider to see these things. You see them in the lower levels where they are not being corrected. A normal horse, rather than these Grand Prix superstars, would never make it up the levels to even a correct Second Level test. Each level that a rider attempts with an imperfect seat becomes more and more problematic.

    Saddleseat, at least in the Arabian world, has its own problems, but bicycle-chain bits are not one of them. That seems to be reserved more for the Tennessee Walkers. Maybe Saddlebreds are also ridden that way, but of that, I have no knowledge.



  4. #24
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    Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhh!!!

    Have I just landed in a backwards, alternate universe?







    9 members found this post helpful.

  5. #25
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    I'm sure the rider is aware of the adage "As little as possible but as much as necessary".
    "I've spent most of my life riding horses. The rest I've just wasted". - Anonymous


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #26
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    The rider's hands do look busy

    BUT

    Notice that her hands are moving in relation to the rider's body which is moving with the very big moving horse. They're not moving in relation to the horse's head. The rider's hips flex with the horse's strides (wish I could do that half as well as she does) and her elbows have to flex as well. Otherwise she would be slamming him in the mouth at every step
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.



  7. #27
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    Angel, you might not know this about COTH but after all these years, I've come to the conclusion that often the harshest critics are also the worst riders.

    I really look forward to seeing video of your superior exhibition of a better ride than the one in the OP's post.


    11 members found this post helpful.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by katarine View Post
    Angel, you might not know this about COTH but after all these years, I've come to the conclusion that often the harshest critics are also the worst riders.

    I really look forward to seeing video of your superior exhibition of a better ride than the one in the OP's post.
    Exactly. DRESSAGE is SO HARD that people have to find fault with the top riders and horses--and even with the sport itself--in order to come to grips with their relative lack of understanding and skill. If a poster cannot do it herself--then it must be WRONG and/or abusive.
    "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller


    2 members found this post helpful.

  9. #29
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    My eye rolly muscles are too fatigued by certain celestial beings to leave my ignore list unattended.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  10. #30
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    Well, thanks for enlightening us. Just a tip though - when you're just starting out in any new activity it's better to phrase your concerns as genuine questions in order to avoid insinuating accusations. This is particularly true if you're going to critique a paragon of that activity's guiding principles. Unless one can cite personal experience that is even approaching the same plane of existence, one simply ends up looking foolish.

    There are many reasons why a Grand Prix dressage rider's hands are likely to appear busier than a rider of a head-set saddleseat horse, but these are basics 101 that don't even really qualify as dressage-specific.
    Proud COTH lurker since 2001.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #31
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    Angel, I don't see how a horse could score what he did at this level and be on the forehand. This rider gives and takes and that is dressage. We take up a bit with the half halt to get the horse to stay together and ready for the next movement we give as a release of the pressure as an award to the horse for complying with the aids. She is moving with a big horse and I'm sorry if she was such as horrible rider she wouldn't be able to stay with this massive moving horse. Even at the lower levels we as riders with a good trainer should know this. I hope to ride this well and with this much freedom to stay with my horse.
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole


    4 members found this post helpful.

  12. #32
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    i just want to add that Helen would not of gotten this end result of such a fantastic ride - if her hands were unsettling to the horse. so while i personally prefer a bit of a different "look" to a riders hands, the horse is telling us loud and clear that he is not being restricted much, if at all.

    also, remember that when there is that much elasticity it might be hard to have completely invisible aids...... my suggestion would be for the folks watching to look and see how her hands move in relation to Damon Hill. Because Damon Hill seems to think her hands are just fine

    and finally, we all have things to improve on - every single one of us. and it will be interesting to see Helen in 20 years and to see how she has evolved as a rider

    i still wish tho that Damon Hill's semen was less pricey (and i guess also better quality) as i would love to breed my mare to him.

    oh and finally, for those that are new fans of Damon Hill there are videos of him when he was younger and with Ingrid - they are in her training series of vids....



  13. #33
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    This is Damon Hill! I missed that completely. I'd heard about him, but I hadn't ever seen him. He is amazing! I just showed my microbiology class the video in break. I still can't get over how amazing this ride was. I've said before; I seldom have the attention span to watch most rides all the way through. This is one of the few that has just grabbed my attention and did not let go (I enjoyed watching Klimke ride Alerich in the olympics, Car Hester at Rotterdam, and Laura Cosentino riding Eclipse in a level 1 test).

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  14. #34
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    RE: Angel

    horse pucky


    3 members found this post helpful.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by katarine View Post
    Angel, you might not know this about COTH but after all these years, I've come to the conclusion that often the harshest critics are also the worst riders.

    I really look forward to seeing video of your superior exhibition of a better ride than the one in the OP's post.
    Funny. Angel's post reminds me of somebody who had read one or two articles online regarding some aspects of riding, never taken the journey to study further, seldom taken quality lessons, and never trained her eyes to see what is going on with riding, and thus quite ignorant due to lack of knowledge. I don't see the need to see her riding - I can simply imagine how brilliant it must be, lol.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost_at_C View Post
    . . .
    There are many reasons why a Grand Prix dressage rider's hands are likely to appear busier than a rider of a head-set saddleseat horse, but these are basics 101 that don't even really qualify as dressage-specific.
    Explain?
    I was told when I left my dressage oriented instructor that I was "flirting" with contact, almost had it. Off to H/J land and no feedback at all re contact, then to SS. I understand, but I don't understand.
    Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
    Incredible Invisible



  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria View Post
    Funny. Angel's post reminds me of somebody who had read one or two articles online regarding some aspects of riding, never taken the journey to study further, seldom taken quality lessons, and never trained her eyes to see what is going on with riding, and thus quite ignorant due to lack of knowledge. I don't see the need to see her riding - I can simply imagine how brilliant it must be, lol.
    Reminds me of EAB, Spirithorse/dragonhart whatever
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReSomething View Post
    Explain?
    I was told when I left my dressage oriented instructor that I was "flirting" with contact, almost had it. Off to H/J land and no feedback at all re contact, then to SS. I understand, but I don't understand.
    Flirting with contact and not having it really is a lot different than a following hand, elbow, shoulder and half halt. The half halt doesn't only come from the hand it comes from the body as well.
    Let's say that your watching a hunter round. One horse is connected and pulls a beautiful flying change, text book perfect. Rider is with the horse, horse is on the hind end and on contact etc. Then the next round is a horse that is not as connected with the rider and not really through. The flying change is late from the rider cues and late behind. This would be say flirting with a flying change. Rider one has all her ducks in a row and horse is on the aids and through so easy for them. Rider one is late on her cues and just doesn't have the horse all together so she gets the sloppy change.

    Just like dressage, this horse is on the contact coming through from behind and is supple. Flirting with the contact would be a little busy in the hands because horse is not through and you are making a frame with your hands. The rider in the video has all her ducks in a row but she is soft in her body so she can follow the horse instead of a death grip.
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole


    1 members found this post helpful.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by angel View Post
    Lovely horse and skilled rider. That never means that there are no problems. This horse is not being ridden with correct weight aids, and that, in turn, means the rider must use more restrictive bit action because the horse is slightly on the forehand. The horse's poll is not the highest portion of the neck for the most part, and the horse's head is overbent because he is being held from the bit and not pushed from the rider's seat. If you watch the rider's feet, you will see that mostly her toes point to ground rather than the heels being lowered. This means that the rider cannot properly use her seat to lift the horse into the half halt because the weight is falling onto the front of the stirrups...again, a symptom of an on-the-forehand horse.

    It does not take a Grand Prix rider to see these things. You see them in the lower levels where they are not being corrected. A normal horse, rather than these Grand Prix superstars, would never make it up the levels to even a correct Second Level test. Each level that a rider attempts with an imperfect seat becomes more and more problematic.

    Saddleseat, at least in the Arabian world, has its own problems, but bicycle-chain bits are not one of them. That seems to be reserved more for the Tennessee Walkers. Maybe Saddlebreds are also ridden that way, but of that, I have no knowledge.
    Sorry folks but I felt this needed to be kept for posterity.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  20. #40
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    The terminology escapes me sometimes. Sometime between 1974 and 2004 phrases that are self evident to you all became the norm, my dressage oriented instructor as a teen never used any phrases that her contemporary was using in 2004 when I started riding again. (By that I mean that the person who taught me in 2004 had graduated from the same program, slightly later, and also taken instruction from my 1974 instructor)

    Thank you for the time to explain. I think my theories were validated somewhat although takng some proper dressage lessons would be best, or at least a definitions cheat sheet.
    Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
    Incredible Invisible


    1 members found this post helpful.

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