The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 58
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Feb. 1, 2012
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    5,069

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Judysmom View Post
    [Money and care certainly weren't an issue for him.
    Sorry, but sometimes money isn't the solution and certainly doesn't mean money = optimum care in the proper manner (i.e. excellent hoof care). The farrier could've been expensive, but that doesn't mean diddly-squat in terms of the type of job they can do.
    "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."


    2 members found this post helpful.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Nov. 13, 2010
    Posts
    2,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
    Sorry, but sometimes money isn't the solution and certainly doesn't mean money = optimum care in the proper manner (i.e. excellent hoof care). The farrier could've been expensive, but that doesn't mean diddly-squat in terms of the type of job they can do.
    Completely agree.

    I know that there are definitely horses out there that NEED shoes. However, I'm sorry but most of the "crappy TB feet" I've seen have underrun heels, long toes, and plenty of flare. All caused by idiot farriers.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Oct. 26, 2007
    Location
    San Jose, Ca
    Posts
    5,247

    Default

    Yep – I send third, fourth or whatever we are at now – TBs are bred for speed, not good feet. Especially in this country.

    Yes, the crazy long toes and no heel that many racetrack farriers favor does not do them any good – but the fact is there are many out there with crappy feet.

    My old OTTB was one of them – had the best sport horse farriers in the area (heck, and one that flew in from Kentucky) work on him. They did a pretty good job, but no farrier was able to overcome my TBs propensity towards thin soles, shelly walls and long toe / no heel.

    Some TBs have great feet naturally! I have known some that went famously barefoot – but there are many that were BORN with crappy feet – many stallions out there with crappy feet passing them on in grand fashion. If they were fast, and can make fast babies, breeders do not care so much about crappy feet.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jan. 21, 2011
    Posts
    272

    Default

    In the last two months alone, I have taken two TB's whose owners swore up and down that they had 'typical TB feet' and couldn't go barefoot and transitioned them to not only barefoot, but sound and chip-free.

    The mentality tends to be a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy because people who would typically go, "His feet are chipping and he's unsound, maybe it's time for a new farrier," instead say, "His feet are chipping and he's unsound, it must be because he's a TB."

    When I looked at my sale horse, I was told he needs shoes. I asked why and I was told it's because he's a thoroughbred. We came home and pulled his shoes. His heels were contracted and his toes were too long, none of which was helped by the shoes. He was tender for the first two days, and I had the trimmer come out regularly in the first two weeks, but he is 100% sound, even in the gravel driveway, and his hoof structures are improving, only one month later. His feet were bad not because he's a TB, but because his last farrier wasn't doing a very good job, but people were using the usual excuse.

    A friend of mine got a TB gelding whose previous owner swore he always 'needed' shoes up front. She changed to a trimmer who specializes in barefoot rehab. Six months later, the horse was able to do 10-15 mile trail rides over rocky terrain without so much as a boot in sight.
    http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...77573892_n.jpg

    On a similar note, I'm very tired of hearing about how TB's are hard keepers. My hay-only fatties beg to differ.... and both came to me ribby from the places they lived at prior.

    Fat, shiny, and sound barefoot:
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-voQvYSU2DA...0/IMG_8223.jpg
    (described as a hard keeper with bad feet

    I am sure that there ARE thoroughbreds who have weak feet, conformational issues, or injuries that make shoes a must. I am sure that there are also TB's who ARE hard keepers, spooky, hard to manage, etc. I just think it's silly that people use the horse's breed as an excuse for it. There are horses with poor feet in every breed. A horse's JC certificate shouldn't be an excuse for poor management. IME, that tends to be the case more often than not.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jul. 24, 2006
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    5,419

    Default

    My OTTB has horrible, no good, very bad feet.

    In his case it's genetics, not care.

    I've had many other racing-bred TBs through the years with equally poor feet. I've also had a handful of racing-bred TBs with good feet, though the best TB feet on my property came from a sporthorse bred TB. He was the only one I've had that was able to go barefoot all year round.

    The reputation is based on a kernel of truth, as others have alluded to. But the absolute statement that "all TBs have bad feet" is, of course, ridiculous.
    __________________________________
    Forever exiled in the NW.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jan. 21, 2011
    Posts
    272

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PNWjumper View Post
    The reputation is based on a kernel of truth, as others have alluded to. But the absolute statement that "all TBs have bad feet" is, of course, ridiculous.
    Agreed. As others have pointed out, the racing TB is bred for speed, not necessarily hoof quality. The feet need to hold up long enough for the horse to make money, and with today's shoes and fillers and vet care, that's possible even on genetically bad feet. Sadly, this seems to also be true in other breeds. The hoof quality of quarter horses and standardbreds is also declining over generations.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Aug. 30, 2011
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
    Sorry, but sometimes money isn't the solution and certainly doesn't mean money = optimum care in the proper manner (i.e. excellent hoof care). The farrier could've been expensive, but that doesn't mean diddly-squat in terms of the type of job they can do.
    In the abstract, I agree with you.

    But Big Brown's farrier is quite well regarded, and myself and my team actually consulted with him regarding my bad foot genetics horse. Who was unraced btw.

    All some of us are trying to point out is that sometimes TB foot issues are not just bad farrier care and bad food. I am a true blue TB person, that is all I buy for myself, and I am NOT knocking TBs, just trying to impart my experience after owning very many of them for the last 25 years.
    Last edited by Judysmom; Mar. 7, 2013 at 06:13 PM. Reason: tone


    4 members found this post helpful.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb. 1, 2012
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    5,069

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by harnessphoto View Post
    In the last two months alone, I have taken two TB's whose owners swore up and down that they had 'typical TB feet' and couldn't go barefoot and transitioned them to not only barefoot, but sound and chip-free.

    The mentality tends to be a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy because people who would typically go, "His feet are chipping and he's unsound, maybe it's time for a new farrier," instead say, "His feet are chipping and he's unsound, it must be because he's a TB."

    When I looked at my sale horse, I was told he needs shoes. I asked why and I was told it's because he's a thoroughbred. We came home and pulled his shoes. His heels were contracted and his toes were too long, none of which was helped by the shoes. He was tender for the first two days, and I had the trimmer come out regularly in the first two weeks, but he is 100% sound, even in the gravel driveway, and his hoof structures are improving, only one month later. His feet were bad not because he's a TB, but because his last farrier wasn't doing a very good job, but people were using the usual excuse.

    A friend of mine got a TB gelding whose previous owner swore he always 'needed' shoes up front. She changed to a trimmer who specializes in barefoot rehab. Six months later, the horse was able to do 10-15 mile trail rides over rocky terrain without so much as a boot in sight.
    http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...77573892_n.jpg

    On a similar note, I'm very tired of hearing about how TB's are hard keepers. My hay-only fatties beg to differ.... and both came to me ribby from the places they lived at prior.

    Fat, shiny, and sound barefoot:
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-voQvYSU2DA...0/IMG_8223.jpg
    (described as a hard keeper with bad feet

    I am sure that there ARE thoroughbreds who have weak feet, conformational issues, or injuries that make shoes a must. I am sure that there are also TB's who ARE hard keepers, spooky, hard to manage, etc. I just think it's silly that people use the horse's breed as an excuse for it. There are horses with poor feet in every breed. A horse's JC certificate shouldn't be an excuse for poor management. IME, that tends to be the case more often than not.
    THANK YOU, you said what I was trying to say in my OP but you said it much more elegantly and with clarity!

    I agree on some level that some breeds are not bred with sound feet in mind (like halter bred QH for example, with the tiny feet). That being said, a lot of the threads on here are TB owners who say their horse has "typical TB feet" and when you look at pictures, they aren't so terrible, you can SEE the potential, but it just seems like the breed itself is used as an excuse as to why the horse needs shoes, has a long toe, has underrun heels, has a thin sole, etc etc etc.

    Genetically, yes, sometimes there isn't much potential to work with, like the itty-bitty footed halter QH's. You can't make the foot bigger if the horse was bred with the intent to have tiny feet. But you can work with what you've got to better the horse to the best of your ability, instead of just leaving it at "well, he's a QH" or "well, he's a TB" like that explains everything and the story stops there.
    "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."



  9. #29
    Join Date
    Feb. 1, 2012
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    5,069

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Judysmom View Post
    In the abstract, I agree with you.

    But Big Brown's farrier is quite well regarded, and myself and my team actually consulted with him regarding my bad foot genetics horse. Who was unraced btw.

    All some of us are trying to point out is that sometimes TB foot issues are not just bad farrier care and bad food. I am a true blue TB person, that is all I buy for myself, and I am NOT knocking TBs, just trying to impart my experience after owning very many of them for the last 25 years.
    Thank you for the additional information, this helps me to see where you were coming from with your original comment.
    "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."



  10. #30
    Join Date
    Apr. 3, 2011
    Posts
    620

    Default

    My TB was well-shod for racing: slightly longer toe, lower (although certainly not under-run) heel, and had aluminum plates with toe grabs. Took my farrier a year to re-balance the hoof for general riding with soundness and comfort for the horse as the main focus. Took several years for my mare's hooves to get used to the climate (she was from the SF Bay Area, which is damp most of the time, and I'm inland where it's very very dry most of the time). Now she has *touchwood* great feet. It's been about 3 years, but we finally got there.

    I have seen TBs with genetic predispositions towards poor hoof quality, but the farrier jobs on them certainly weren't helping them out much. It is definitely a balance, and people need to remember that hoof horn grows slowly, and change takes years.



  11. #31
    Join Date
    Jan. 21, 2011
    Posts
    272

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
    a lot of the threads on here are TB owners who say their horse has "typical TB feet" and when you look at pictures, they aren't so terrible, you can SEE the potential, but it just seems like the breed itself is used as an excuse as to why the horse needs shoes, has a long toe, has underrun heels, has a thin sole, etc etc etc.
    Exactly. Hence the self fulfilling prophecy part of my comment.

    What makes me sick is when people use the 'it's a TB' excuse as a way to be lazy. But I have a feeling I should tread carefully if I go that way.

    I try to avoid the shod v. barefoot discussion as much as possible, and I'm of the general opinion that people should do 'whatever works' (within reason of course). I have seen poorly maintained barefoot horses and well-maintained shod horses (and vice versa), but there's no reason to use a horse's breed as an excuse. If your horse has some 'issues', you need to find what works for him. Unfortunately, that means going the extra mile, and it's just easier to say, "Eh, typical TB feet."



  12. #32
    Join Date
    Jul. 10, 2003
    Location
    Where is gets way too cold
    Posts
    3,529

    Default

    I own and have owned mostly TBs and a few misc other breeds, and the TBs hands down have the worst feet as a general rule and get the most intensive maintenance with trimming/shoeing/supplements/topicals to try to improve the issue.
    TBs are not bred for strong hooves (thick walls and soles), and some horses (especially those bred for turf) are selected for platter feet. Combine that with usually having long sloping pasterns, long legs that have to spread a long way to graze/eat from the ground, a galloping stride that may slam and further crush heels, early shoeing on the track that usually doesn't help the issue, and you're looking at low angled feet with a strong tendency for crushed/underrun heels.
    TBs have a rep for bad feet for good reason, and it has nothing to do with a cop-out on management, with people trying less hard than with other breeds to encourage good hoof form. I have never seen that. Ever.
    I have had a few with great strong feet that do fine barefoot, but a much smaller percentage than with the other breeds.
    *CrowneDragon*
    As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Nov. 10, 2005
    Location
    Va
    Posts
    3,586

    Default

    My TB (not OT) has good quality feet, just very flat footed. I ride quite a bit on a variety of terrain. I find that she does best with shoes on all 4 feet. She holds her shoes well and is not on any hoof supplements.



  14. #34
    Join Date
    Jan. 21, 2011
    Posts
    272

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CrowneDragon View Post
    TBs have a rep for bad feet for good reason, and it has nothing to do with a cop-out on management, with people trying less hard than with other breeds to encourage good hoof form. I have never seen that. Ever.
    I'm not saying they don't have the rep for a reason and I'm not saying every TB owner who claims their horse has bad feet is lazy. I'm just saying that I have seen the 'it's a TB' excuse used REPEATEDLY on horses who end up having fine feet with a little extra management.

    I have personally seen more horses who are labeled with bad feet who turn out to just need a proper trim and a rehab period than I have horses with truly bad feet. That goes for all breeds. TB's included. Your experience may vary. I'm not attempting to offend anyone.

    Most of the people I've met who label their TB's as having 'poor feet' only to have an awesome turn around were merely ignorant. A lack of information goes a dreadfully long way.

    The racetrack experience certainly doesn't help set the horses up to have what most people consider 'good feet'. The same goes for standardbreds, quarter horses, and racing Arabs.

    I think thoroughbreds in general take a little more maintenance and know-how than other horses, partially because of current breeding practices, and partially due to the strain put on them at the track. Given the proper transition, however, I've found that their day-to-day upkeep matches the rest of the horses on my property. I'm willing to bet that horses with similarly difficult backgrounds (soring, Amish, neglect, etc.) would also require extra maintenance while they transition (or, possibly, for life). My argument would be that it has more to do with the horse's life up until that point and less to do with the horse's breed. Were the 'other breeds' you had exposed to rigors similar to racing?



  15. #35
    Join Date
    Apr. 13, 2008
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    2,303

    Default

    Saying people are using "he's a tb, it's a given" is ignorant is just as blasé and stupid as saying people use said excuse as a cop out or excuse or laziness.

    I've seen plenty of tb/ottbs with terrible feet that NO amount of expertise would fix -- tbs aren't bred for quality feet and there is no arguing that. You can make those cases manageable. I don't know of anyone who uses their horse breed as an excuse for poor management - and most people I know with poor hoof quality in their tbs are extra particular with who has the luxury of addressing it.

    In the end I don't think it's particularly fair for either party - tbs have the propensity for weaker hoof structure because it is continually bred down the line; I'm going to venture that it is incredibly genetic and adding poor hoof angles LTLH to the mix could only exacerbate a genetically-disastrous hoof further. It's unfair to be knocking down professionals when they don't necessarily start with the best quality clay in the first place...

    I guess what I should say is unless you're an expert/professional and just as formally trained as the person rasping said horse's hoof, I don't think you have any room to judge the job the professional is doing on them to fix it. Most farriers (certainly not all) have a lot of "patching up" to do to their ottb clients.

    Fwiw, I've only owned ottbs and their ease of keep, hoof quality, and temperament have been incredibly diverse.
    AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012



  16. #36
    Join Date
    Feb. 18, 2006
    Location
    east central Illinois and working north to the 'burbs
    Posts
    3,836

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by harnessphoto View Post
    In the last two months alone, I have taken two TB's whose owners swore up and down that they had 'typical TB feet' and couldn't go barefoot and transitioned them to not only barefoot, but sound and chip-free.
    Two months, eh?


    1 members found this post helpful.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Dec. 18, 2006
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    4,508

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by harnessphoto View Post
    What makes me sick is when people use the 'it's a TB' excuse as a way to be lazy. But I have a feeling I should tread carefully if I go that way.
    But do you really know people like this in real life? Or farriers that don't try hard to fix TB feet v. other breeds? My farrier would make more money if he could simply trim my TB instead of the crazy shoeing she requires. Trims are faster, require less equipment and fewer supplies on the truck, and less likely to be messed up by a bad nail or a mis-step and pulled shoe. Believe me, if he could *fix* her feet, he'd be all over that in a second.

    My farrier has TB clients with good feet, and I boarded one with great feet for over a year and would hold her for my farrier. Same farrier, same basic diet, same workload, etc. but different feet - she was barefoot and easy to manage. Mine required shoes, and has "typical TB feet" - thin walls, thin soles.



  18. #38
    Join Date
    Jan. 16, 2002
    Location
    West Coast of Michigan
    Posts
    36,321

    Default

    It's a stereotype, and as such of course one can find many, many examples that "break the mold". But stereotypes tend to exist for a reason.

    Whether it's nature, nurture, or some combination of both, the stereotypical "TB hoof" is something virtually everyone can recognize via description and the term is therefore used as shorthand. It's not an insult or a knock on the breed, and need not be taken personally if one's own TB happens to have glorious hooves.
    Click here before you buy.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Aug. 28, 2006
    Posts
    10,002

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Judysmom View Post
    Some TBs have crappy feet. I have owned many with fabulous hoof conformation and quality.

    Some TBs may have shelly feet due to poor nutrition, or have contracted heels from poor farriery. Those horses situations can be resolved through due dillegence.

    But some horses though have really crappy feet due to genetics. I'm not just taking about a bad trim ie LTLH, but foot conformation, thin soles and negligible digital cushion. Sadly I owned one of those. Big Brown is another example. Remember him? He won the Derby and the Preakness, and sprung a shoe in the Belmont. Money and care certainly weren't an issue for him.
    Judysmom is right. The OTTB foot that people talk about are horses with thin soles and walls and inadequate digital cushion. The racing trim just makes the foot a lot worse. The foot can be returned to a better form but the thickness of the sole and walls and the robustness of the digital cushion may not improve.

    I also agree with her that there are OTTBs with fabulous feet. I've known a few such horses myself.



  20. #40
    Join Date
    Jan. 21, 2011
    Posts
    272

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S1969 View Post
    But do you really know people like this in real life? Or farriers that don't try hard to fix TB feet v. other breeds? My farrier would make more money if he could simply trim my TB instead of the crazy shoeing she requires. Trims are faster, require less equipment and fewer supplies on the truck, and less likely to be messed up by a bad nail or a mis-step and pulled shoe. Believe me, if he could *fix* her feet, he'd be all over that in a second.
    Yes, I know people in real life who don't try very hard to fix their TB's 'bad feet'. IRL I don't approach them and say anything. It's not worth it and it's rude. Perhaps my initial wording was a bit harsh. It's a hot topic with me and I tend to go over board.

    I do NOT know any farriers who intentionally don't do their best. I HAVE seen farriers who aren't properly equipped/trained/experienced to handle poor feet. I have also met TB owners who use said farriers on their horses and get poor results. In all of those cases, the farrier seems to genuinely believe he's doing his best. In some of those cases, the horse owner also thinks she's doing the best for her horse. In other cases, it's just 'easier' than finding a new farrier.

    One such owner (who uses an under-equipped farrier on her TB) sent her horse to me for unrelated issues. In the process, I convinced her to try my hoof guy, who specializes in barefoot rehab. Her horse is currently sound barefoot, even on my gravel driveway. He went through two weeks of pretty bad chipping and some soreness on the frozen ground, but we stayed on top of it and his recovery has been amazing. The owner is currently planning on using my guy on her horse.

    In this owner's case, she was just uninformed, but I have met other people who use the same farrier. He does a decent job with your 'easy' horses who have good feet, and I have heard more than one of his clients say that it's easier to just deal with the 'bad feet' than it is to find a new/second farrier. I have nothing against this particular farrier, but I wouldn't hire him for one of my horses, and especially one who had 'bad feet'. The fact is that I have seen horses (mostly thoroughbreds) come out of his practice with 'bad feet' who I'm willing to bet would do just fine barefoot with proper maintenance. Now, I'm not about to jump in there uninvited and say, "I think you could do better," but I have seen, on more than one occasion, a horse who switches to a more specialized farrier and improves in leaps and bounds.

    I swear I'm not knocking on people whose TB's have bad feet. They certainly exist. It sounds like they exist more frequently than in other breeds. I wonder if that's breeding, training, maintenance, or all of the above. I'm not knocking people who have shoes on. I have certainly met horses who need shoes or benefit from them. I am simply saying that I've seen the 'typical TB feet' excuse applied to horses who are simply being poorly maintained.



Similar Threads

  1. One word popped into my head: "Hooves"
    By drmgncolor in forum Off Course
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: Feb. 23, 2013, 11:21 PM
  2. Typical "gross" thread on OT day...
    By AliCat518 in forum Off Topic
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: Nov. 1, 2011, 01:17 PM
  3. CL 200 lb underweight is "typical"
    By OveroHunter in forum Off Course
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: Sep. 1, 2011, 07:44 PM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: Oct. 22, 2009, 12:03 PM
  5. Farrier schools say leave "clubbed" hooves alone?
    By BornToRide in forum Horse Care
    Replies: 114
    Last Post: Aug. 7, 2009, 09:04 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
randomness