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  1. #1
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    Default "Dressage judges have been told to go easy on eventing horses in competitions"

    Thoughts on this?

    "Dressage judges have been told to go easy on eventing horses in competitions, though training, basic paces, and presentation of the test should be evaluated in the same way as pure dressage...In a note to judges officiating at British horse trials, FEI judges Judy Harvey and Nick Burton commented that because of their different musculature, eventers will 'rarely be able to show the looseness characteristic of the Grand Prix horse and therefore their paces are unlikely to be as extravagant.' "

    http://www.scoop.it/t/equestrian-eve...1-dae2b06bd605
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  2. #2
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    Default



    And this is one of the biggest problems with our sport.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  3. #3
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    Jan. 8, 2013
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    I started in the dressage world, moved to hunters and then eventing and am now back to dressage due to recovering from ACL surgery. While I love eventing and have a huge amount of respect for what they do, there isn't much comparison in scores given in the eventing world and scores given in the dressage world.

    I went down to Florida a couple of winters ago and scores even at those larger events and upper levels of eventing, I expect there was close to a 10 point difference between what those horses would have scored at a dressage rated show and the dressage scores at those events.

    However, I don't know that that's neccessarily wrong as long as judging within each sport is consistent. The dressage phase is dressage, but if it's not judged quite as harshly as is typical at USDF shows, what does that hurt? Dressage is not the only focus of eventers, which is why advanced level eventing includes only 3rd level dressage.


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  4. #4
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    Having been on both sides of the fence, lucky enough to be working instructors at the top of their game in each discipline. I would say it is not in the best interest of event riders to be scored lightly. The mind set, and the tool box I have seen in use in each camp frequently is quite different. Eventers, with a few exceptions, tend to have a "get it done" now attitude, while dressage queens ( and kings) try very hard to get it done right even though it takes
    longer at one time or another.

    So long as the scoring stay even throughout the competition The winner will still be the winner.
    Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.


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  5. #5
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    Perhaps the meaning of the quote is that event horses should be judged more on accuracy and correctness than the flamboyance/extravagance of gaits that is so prevalent now in dressage judging. Personally I think that is a very good thing.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


    21 members found this post helpful.

  6. #6
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Perhaps the meaning of the quote is that event horses should be judged more on accuracy and correctness than the flamboyance/extravagance of gaits that is so prevalent now in dressage judging. Personally I think that is a very good thing.
    I wouldn't want to a take a Grand Prix dressage horse cross country for all the tea in China.


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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Perhaps the meaning of the quote is that event horses should be judged more on accuracy and correctness than the flamboyance/extravagance of gaits that is so prevalent now in dressage judging. Personally I think that is a very good thing.
    Agree agree agree.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  8. #8
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    Jan. 14, 2006
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    Locally, our eventing dressage (schooling/recognized) is scored much tougher than dressage shows (schooling).



  9. #9
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    Feb. 7, 2011
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Perhaps the meaning of the quote is that event horses should be judged more on accuracy and correctness than the flamboyance/extravagance of gaits that is so prevalent now in dressage judging. Personally I think that is a very good thing.
    This is exactly it Viney! Eventing horses have a completely different type of muscleature to dressage horses because of the other two phases that they have to excel at so they don't have the same ability to really sit and collect.


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  10. #10
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    Given how the top US rider/horse combinations tend to lag the competition after dressage at 4* events maybe we ought to be asking to be scored tougher here at home. I know every time I see some ULR/Horse combo score in the low 20's or teens I have to chuckle because somehow that team is going to manage a 50 on the biggest stages.

    When the US teams can consistently score in the 30's like the europeans then you can say our scoring here at home is tough enough.
    People often confuse ideology with knowledge and thoughtful reasoning.


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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Perhaps the meaning of the quote is that event horses should be judged more on accuracy and correctness than the flamboyance/extravagance of gaits that is so prevalent now in dressage judging. Personally I think that is a very good thing.
    This - I spoke to a judge recently who told me exactly that.



  12. #12
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Perhaps the meaning of the quote is that event horses should be judged more on accuracy and correctness than the flamboyance/extravagance of gaits that is so prevalent now in dressage judging. Personally I think that is a very good thing.
    Viney, this is how I read the article and what I think the intent of it really is, and I agree completely.

    FTBT, I understand what you are saying, but I don't find that our FEI judging is off the mark. Our best horses (the ones that score so impressively in horse trials) tend to win or do very well at our home FEI events, especially the CICs and CCI*** where we don't get the European contingent. But their scores aren't necessarily drastically different winning at home as they are being mid back in Europe (or at Rolex when we're invaded by Brits!). I do also think that our horses don't do as well abroad because there is no true comparison to the atmosphere that you get over there. It can make a big difference.



  13. #13
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    Thaaat's right dumb it all down, just like they do every other thing.
    Pretty soon everyone will get a blue ribbon just for showing up!
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." Caffeinated.



  14. #14
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    Where does it say ANYTHING about "extravagant" gaits or comparison to a Grand Prix horse in any dressage test that pertains to eventing?

    Tempest in a teacup. Does not apply to the vast majority of eventers and their horses.
    Click here before you buy.


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  15. #15
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    From a ranking perspective or even in selecting teams it shouldn't matter if the winning score is a 20 or a 40. We already see variation from judge to judge.

    I guess if marking down tension less (how I read the article, anyway) creates less spread in the scores (wouldn't have to, but it could), it could reduce the weight of dressage vs the jumping phases. Which could impact horse selection/development. But at the the same time, eventing has survived all kinds of phase-weighting changes (remember when we did the USDF tests and dressage scores could be >100?) Non-FEI dressage is much less important to the score than it was then, yet it is probably more competitive anyway.


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  16. #16
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    As a rider/judge/trainer....what a bunch of horse puckey. That said, the dressage phase is to judge TRAINING, it is not a materiale class (to judge movement for as a sport horse), and much of the 'extravagance de jour' is FROM tension! The gait score is there to look at purity and how training is influencing the gait score. So, just because that has become convoluted (by poor judging of the training), now the scores are to be upped?

    Tension in a horse on the flat while have impact over fences.

    Sannois, that was great!

    So, is the meaning of the quote to judge correct TRAINING (as it should be at ALL levels in all parts of dressage levels) or 'just circumnavigating the arena'. The later is an insult. And the whole idea that a fit horse should not be basically obedient is silliness, they actually have more focus and balance if the training is in order, it is the horses which are compressed and curled over that blow a spring.
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Perhaps the meaning of the quote is that event horses should be judged more on accuracy and correctness than the flamboyance/extravagance of gaits that is so prevalent now in dressage judging. Personally I think that is a very good thing.
    THIS!



  18. #18
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    Default

    That quote is about British judges judging British horses at British national horse trials, so I'm not sure it can be blamed for American dressage failings.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  19. #19
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    It's not just about the gaits. Here's the entire article: http://horsetalk.co.nz/2013/03/05/dr...nces-eventers/ It seems to me that judges are going to have to agree upon what constitutes a "minor" disobediance and how to score it. Could complicate an already difficult task.



  20. #20
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    In pure dressage a horse has been able to have what looks like a MAJOR disobedience in one element of the test and still score extremely well on the test as a whole. So that part of the advice wouldn't seem to have much impact in dressage judges' scoring. One 4 is not going to outweigh a test filled with eights and nines.

    The more I think about it, perhaps this advice is one part of an effort to avoid more disgraces like the London Olympics where so many of the horses seemed to have been selected for their dressage ability and then totally bombed XC.
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