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  1. #121
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    Aug. 26, 2008
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    I am an engineer, I was in a co-operative degree program that allowed me to graduate with minimum debt (but I'm also in Canada, so that changes a lot.) I'd recommend engineering as a career...but you kind of have to want it. If it hasn't struck your fancy yet, it probably won't. The schooling is brutal, and in Canada, a Science degree will get you credit for a maximum of 3 semesters of Engineering studies...so you're looking at about 3 more years. Mechanical (my discipline) is kind of the ultimate "suitcase" field...you can work on anything with moving parts. I specialize in pressure equipment. I am interested in what I do, and enjoy the daily math/physics of my job...but most people start to fall asleep when they hear what I actually do. Engineering is the definition of tedium for most of the population.

    I've had horses at home with one or two boarded out since I was 25. I am married, but until this year, the horses were completely my own expense, and my husband and I divided common bills right down the middle. We just bought a farm with the intent of staying put to raise a family, so some of the "horse" property upgrades are coming out of our joint account.

    Two jobs that pay extremely well and might not be up at the top of anyone's list are Process Operator (sometimes called Steam or Power Engineer) and Live-Line Technician.

    Getting a steam ticket (power engineering certification) is a several-month course and an exam, and would not present a huge challenge for someone with an undergrad science degree. It's new stuff, but you'll have the math and chemistry to be set up to do well. The job would typically involve shift work, but depending where you are, that might mean a 6 day-on, 6 day-off schedule or something equivalent. Shift premiums and frequent overtime make this a very lucrative job in my part of Canada. You would be looking for jobs in Chemical Plants, Refineries, Power Plants or other heavy industrial facilities. I work in the same types of places as an engineer, and if you're willing to move around, it might be a good career to consider. There are 4 classes of power engineering tickets, and any facility that sells power to the grid is required to employ a minimum number of first and second-class tickets. There are VERY few people holding first class tickets anymore, and they are retiring all the time. You need several years of experience and additional courses/exams to get to that level (and your experience needs to be in plants that have boilers of a certain size) but I can tell you that the first-class power engineer is among the 5 most important people in an industrial facility, and he commands an EXCELLENT salary.

    Live Line Crews are very specifically trained to work on live electrical installations. Depending where you are, you may need to obtain an Electrician's Ticket, but in some places, a Live Line Technician is its own job, and you are primarily trained by your employer. You would work for the company that manages the electrical infrastructure in the region. The work is demanding, and your life depends on your crew following procedures to the letter...but the pay is excellent and the shift rotations can be appealing.
    Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior



  2. #122
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    Mar. 11, 2007
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    Montana
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    Really, NoSuchPerson? A SAHM mom shouldn't feel so "defensive about criticism?" when we read this from wendy? ""You SAHMs are dragging us all down. I can't believe some women are still so stupid that they are willing to sacrifice any chance at having a decent future and actual independence by deciding to resume a child-like state of dependence upon some man. And don't give me that hooey about how hard SAHMs work- they work less than anyone else. All of us who work do everything you do, plus we work.""

    I don't give a rat's rear end what wendy thinks about my choices; I doubt she can think any less of me than I do of her ratty little opinion, but there is some room to be unimpressed when she's called me stupid and told me that I'm dragging everyone down.


    SNL's point misses the mark at least part of the time too: horses are something we have as a family and he had horses before he ever met me; I had my own that I brought into the marriage too. It's turned out nicely that we were able to get by on his salary so...to answer the OP's question: if she wanted a job in manufacturing in Montana, she could afford a few horses and a SAH spouse.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  3. #123
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    Dec. 21, 2008
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    Missouri
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    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    um really? it's that fact that many women still choose to drop out of the workforce and become non-working dependents that is THE major contributing factor to women being paid less- why bother to pay more when she'll just leave after she gets married? is the thinking. Clearly women aren't serious about working, why bother paying them? is the thinking. Why take them seriously? they aren't serious about working, all they want is to stay home and play with babies. You SAHMs are dragging us all down.
    I can't believe some women are still so stupid that they are willing to sacrifice any chance at having a decent future and actual independence by deciding to resume a child-like state of dependence upon some man. And don't give me that hooey about how hard SAHMs work- they work less than anyone else. All of us who work do everything you do, plus we work.

    So don't choose the route of "dependent on some man who can walk off and leave you destitute and unemployable at any time he pleases".

    anyway, it depends on where you live as to how much money you need- around here, you'd better bring on over $150k or you can't afford a horse unless you like eating beans n rice and wearing rags. Also pay very close attention to the person who said you may need to think about sacrificing money for time.
    I never got paid less than my male co workers because my work ethic and lack of laziness proved itself in every job I had. If you feel dragged down or under paid maybe it is because you are on here when you should be working. In all reality a woman who chooses to stay home and actually raise her own children could teach many professional "career women" what work really is.

    Yes, a man can walk out on you, but many people have left work on Friday feeling secure in their job and arrive Monday morning and the place is shut down. Nothing is secure.

    To keep on topic : It all depends on where you live and if you live within your means as to what you can afford to do with horses. What are you willing to sacrifice to have them?


    4 members found this post helpful.

  4. #124
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    Mar. 13, 2003
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    247

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Ridge View Post
    Ummmm... I would KILL to get home at 8 on the weeknights I ride. I typically work 10-6, but when I ride I sneak out at 5. I leave for the barn at 5:30, get there around 7:15, on at 7:45 (7:30 if I'm lucky), off at 9. Out of the barn by 9:30 and back in the city by 10:30 or 10:45. Phew.

    So, just a reminder that being home at 8 is pretty darn lucky.
    It's actually the same. You're home at 10:45pm but your work day starts at 10am. I'm home at 8pm but my work day starts at 7:30am.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #125
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    Mar. 4, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoSuchPerson View Post
    I wish the SAHMs wouldn't feel so defensive about criticism. Making the choice for one spouse to stay at home, with or without children, is a perfectly valid lifestyle choice, whether everyone else embraces it or not.

    But, I can also understand why someone who might have been affected by the break-up of a marriage in which a SAHM was left in a bad situation with no readily marketable job skills after 20+ years of staying home to raise a family and run the household might be bitter. I used to have an acquaintance who found herself in that situation. Her kids suffered the most and for a while she kicked herself every day for not being better prepared (hindsight is always 20/20). There was a lot of bitterness there.
    I'm not defensive, I think a statement like Wendy's shows some serious ignorance. When I say there are many paths to success, I am speaking of myself and many of my good lady friends and neighbors who have good careers yet who look like stay at home moms on the surface. We are the very fortunate ones who managed to figure out a way to stay at home and earn money at the same time. It always cracked me up when people were honestly puzzled about what I did for a living - I traveled 1 or 2 weeks a month and was Ms Corporate on the road but the rest of the time I worked out of the house and was very low key in appearance and involved with the twins. My friends are occupational therapists and a nurse and managed to be at home the majority of the time. And even if we didn't work, we are exercising our right to choose which our foremothers fought for, eh?

    As for the insecurity of it - well, people get laid off all the time from corporate and government jobs - having circumstances change is just a fact of life. We pick ourselves up and do what we need to do to survive. Having a job is no guarantee that you won't have tough times. Did we not learn that over the last 7 or 8 years?

    OP, I hope you feel like you've gotten some great hints here - because you have. Best of luck with your decision!



  6. #126
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    Jul. 17, 2009
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    south eastern US
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    I'm an Executive Assistant/Database Admin/Office manager (it's a small company ). I make under $50K a year and couldn't afford to have as many animals as I have right now if I didn't also have my husband's income. I could probably only afford one horse on my income alone even though I keep them at home. I trail ride exclusively and enjoy trailering places for day rides and the ocassional camping trip. Even those things can get expensive what with the price of fuel now a days. A two day camping trip, even with shared expenses can easily get to around $150.00 for the weekend.
    "My biggest fear is that when I die my husband is going to try to sell all my horses and tack for what I told him they cost."



  7. #127
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    Sep. 4, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboymom View Post
    Really, NoSuchPerson? A SAHM mom shouldn't feel so "defensive about criticism?" when we read this from wendy?
    Yes, really. When SAHM's get all worked up and defensive in response to some foolish negative comment, it just makes you look like you're insecure and feeling guilty about your choice. What I wish SAHM's would do is either respond with some facts or just ignore stupid stuff.

    I'm trying to think of a good analogy, and can't at the moment, so I'll settle for a marginal one that will perhaps help make my point. I ride mules. You should hear the crap people say about mules. But I have confidence in my choice of equine so I either ignore it or I calmly offer some factual information to counter their comments. If I get all hot under the collar and defensive, I've done nothing to change their mind and, perhaps more importantly, I've done nothing to educate bystanders who haven't yet formed an opinion.

    FTR, during my life I've been a SAHM, a full-time student mom, a working wife and mother, and a single parent working mom. They all have advantages and disadvantages. (Full-time student mom was by far the best.) So, I've seen it from all angles and I see no need to be defensive about any of those choices no matter what someone else might say.
    Last edited by NoSuchPerson; Mar. 8, 2013 at 06:05 PM. Reason: Fix redundancy


    4 members found this post helpful.

  8. #128
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboymom View Post
    I am one of the dregs of society, a SAHM, so can't provide valuable input but I can tell you that a mid-range manufacturing job in Montana can pay for 10-20 acres of land, a herd of horses, a pack of dogs, decent truck and trailer, two kids, and a highly educated but lazy POS chef, housekeeper, book-keeper, farm hand, secretary, personal shopper, personal assistant, private teacher and full-time care giver for your children.
    Now that ain't true. If the SAHM (who did, what, 5 jobs?) were paid market rates for those things, the one breadwinner would be in trouble.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    2 members found this post helpful.

  9. #129
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    Dec. 13, 2008
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    Somewhere over the rainbow
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    Actually, I feel a bit defensive and I'm single with no kids. Some of the comments were quite caustic.

    We are so focused on independence in Euro-American culture we sometimes lose sight of the value of (and reality of our) interdependence. Some even confuse that with "child-like dependence." No one is an island and we can rely on family or on paid third parties but we do rely. Provider-types put most of their energy into providing and depend on their partners for more than 50% of household management and parenting. Ambitious-types similarly need help to raise a family and usually need a family to be successful (when was the last time we elected a bachelor president?). Nurturing, non-competitive types make awesome parents and caregivers of the aging, but they do best with financial stability coming from their partners. Where both partners are ambitious, grandparents, daycares and the like must be involved, unless children are not desired which is relatively rare.

    It's true that there are relatively few guarantees of stability in life. Work is not guaranteed, health is not guaranteed, investments are not guaranteed. Used to be family was the most stable thing in a person's life and so that reliance on family was quite sensible. The "childlike dependence" of wives on their husbands was largely institutional and has largely been resolved on that level; a woman can own and inherit property, borrow money, get a job w/o a permission slip, retain custody of her children, etc. There is nothing childlike about pooling resources and dividing labor. The issue of equal pay is complex and there's a difference between starting pay being different based on gender and different rates of raises and promotions resulting from different levels of commitment and productivity. Some cultures have more regulations protecting family life and some allow more free-market influence (no FMLA, no promise of insurance for children or pregnant women, etc). Again, those are institutional/societal choices.

    A young woman making these big life decisions can't do so without full understanding of the trade offs she will have to make. If you want to have children and have horses and want to be able to ride them sometimes, I would listen very well to the woman here who are doing that. Some of them may be making less than their husbands or are even SAHM's so you will need to reconcile their fundamental worthlessness as human beings with the potential utility of their perspective.
    An auto-save saved my post.

    I might be a cylon


    9 members found this post helpful.

  10. #130
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    Sep. 24, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by apprider View Post
    Do you really like statistics? My work involves the managing the statistical programming efforts for clinical trials. I loved my job when I was actually programming (no longer hands on), and it pays pretty well.
    I'm a clinical programmer and work with clinical trial data. I love what I do - and it pays quite well.

    But it's really tough being on my own, keeping up a townhouse, and having a horse. Even though my truck & trailer are paid off, there is still the maintenace. And due to mywork commute, I need a commuter car.

    I board at a very reasonable barn, but I can't afford lessons very often, or too many shows. It's tight at times, and I wouldn't be so broke if I didn't have the horse, but riding is the best form of relaxation I know.



  11. #131
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    Feb. 22, 2009
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    Wisconsin
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    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    um really? it's that fact that many women still choose to drop out of the workforce and become non-working dependents that is THE major contributing factor to women being paid less- why bother to pay more when she'll just leave after she gets married? is the thinking. Clearly women aren't serious about working, why bother paying them? is the thinking. Why take them seriously? they aren't serious about working, all they want is to stay home and play with babies. You SAHMs are dragging us all down.
    I can't believe some women are still so stupid that they are willing to sacrifice any chance at having a decent future and actual independence by deciding to resume a child-like state of dependence upon some man. And don't give me that hooey about how hard SAHMs work- they work less than anyone else. All of us who work do everything you do, plus we work.

    So don't choose the route of "dependent on some man who can walk off and leave you destitute and unemployable at any time he pleases".

    anyway, it depends on where you live as to how much money you need- around here, you'd better bring on over $150k or you can't afford a horse unless you like eating beans n rice and wearing rags. Also pay very close attention to the person who said you may need to think about sacrificing money for time.
    I think you need to canoe more. Oh and I'm not a stay at home mom. Just a health challenged trainer/instructor.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  12. #132
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    Feb. 2, 2003
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    Iowa, USA
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    Wendy's post was not only abrasive, it's completely unfounded. I am about to make a generalization about women that may be just as insulting, but here's what I've experienced in my career: Women. Don't. Demand. More. We often don't negotiate, and while certainly a lot of that is very firmly-installed social conditioning, it's still something we can change. Negotiating starting salary, at every new job, is sooooo important, because all subsequent raises, etc are based on that. So the male-female gap widens every year.

    From the WashPost, quoting a Carnegie Mellon study:
    • Women, on average, ask for 30 percent less money than males.
    • Men are four times more likely to negotiate a first salary than women.
    • Men are eight times more likely than women to negotiate their starting salary and benefits.
    • Women ask for raises or promotions 85 percent less often than their male counterparts.
    • In 2007, women who were full-time wage and salary workers earned 80 percent of their male counterpart's salary.
    • 20 percent of women (22 million people) say they never negotiate at all, even though they recognize negotiation as appropriate and even necessary.
    • 2.5 times more women than men said they feel "a great deal of apprehension" about negotiation.
    • When asked to pick metaphors for negotiations, men picked "winning a ball game match," while women picked "going to the dentist."


    Wendy, would you care to back up your post with some hard facts?
    Try to break down crushing defeats into smaller, more manageable failures. It’s also helpful every now and then to stop, take stock of your situation, and really beat yourself up about it.The Onion


    4 members found this post helpful.

  13. #133
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    Apr. 17, 2002
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    between the barn and the pond
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    Oh please. Do you have to feed her angry ego? Who cares what she thinks?


    2 members found this post helpful.

  14. #134
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    Feb. 21, 2007
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    VA
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    I am a public school teacher (currently teaching multi-grade English as a Second Language) with 17 years' experience, teaching in a good-paying district (due to resort city in our district...think high property taxes) but living outside that district in a county with very low cost of living. Salary? Ummm, some people on here know me IRL and it weirds me out a bit to say what I make now. How about my potential? If we had not been on a salary freeze for the past three years and had received our cost of living and step increases, my salary would be in the $80k range...quite a ways away from that right now...but pretty generous as far as public school teachers go. With the way the economy is, it could be a looong time before I reach my potential...lol.

    I have my two horses at home, which is fairly economical. The cost of keeping them at home is cheaper than I would pay in board for the two of them. I don't buy much for my horses these days. I've been horsekeeping for all my adult life, and I just don't need much. When I do need something, I shop sales if possible.

    Do I show as much as I'd like? Yes, but I'm really more interested in clinics and lessons than I am showing. I'm easily pacified with a few schooling shows each year. I try to do one clinic each month and a lesson per week. I board my instructor's retired mare in exchange for my weekly lessons. Her horse gets great turnout and pasture and care, and I get lessons...it works out well for both of us.

    I love having days-long vacations (Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving) and summers off. It provides me with plenty of "horse time" and farm maintenance time that I wouldn't have in a 52-week-a-year job. I have found that I make riding progress and learn much during the summer and fall, we spend winter *trying* to maintain, and we spend spring getting back into shape.

    I don't *love* every aspect of teaching. It is not nearly as enjoyable as it used to be. However, I still find joy in working with kids...the most important part...and I am happy to deal with the rest for the benefits of the job. It's all about attitude
    "We need a pinned ears icon." -MysticOakRanch


    2 members found this post helpful.

  15. #135
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    Sep. 13, 2006
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    At the back of the line
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    I havent seen all the replys but heres mine, when we got 1st horse we 1/2 leased him for lessons back to the BO. Sold him & got more advance one, made a better kids horse than my horse so then we had 2, none used for lessons. We could handle #1 easy, #2 made it so we stopped all other stuff for kids that rode, when we added #3 we dipped into DH bonus every month. I worked a little but I paid for the house, mostly it was DH paying for horses/small shows, training was about $500/mo/horse. When I got a F/T job for a nonprofit & still worked at home I paid for 2 horses, DH for 1. Training now is more like $700/horse. We dont do much, kids do horses or 1 team sport, dont eat out much, vacation 1x year. We did maybe 2 travel shows & some local shows, not what we wanted to do but we did a lot. Now we have low 6 figure income & COL is very low here so that helps.
    “Management is doing things right; leadership is doing the right things.” Peter Drucker



  16. #136
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    Jul. 13, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by S1969 View Post
    Wow, bitter much? While it is true that "government" employees don't experience the same market fluctuations as "private" businesses, they also don't enjoy the chance for salary increases.
    I was telling the OP, who is young and just starting out, what I've found to be true about work. It's not bitterness to tell people that X choice has X benefits and X drawbacks. I didn't go into the benefits of my choices because they were not financial, and the OP specifically wanted a financial POV. I'm happy with my choices - I wanted to work in my profession, in the private world, and work my way up, in a major city, while being free of marriage and children. I did that, and it was extremely satisfying. I'm glad I did it, and I'm not bitter I didn't settled down at 28 with a good guy and start having kids. BUT - the OP wanted to know how to proceed with adulthood with an eye to funding a very expensive hobby. Spending 10 years developing a wonderfully rewarding but not inevitably lucrative career in private industry, unmarried, in an expensive urban area, is not the way.

    And government workers never seem to grasp that while yes, the salaries of some people in private industry can be vastly higher than any civil servant can ever expect, the average salary/benefit packages are both much higher and much more secure. Not to mention the issue of seniority; government jobs build in pay raises, while private industry assures nothing. Government = more time, more money. Private = more time, closer to being laid off.



  17. #137
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    Jul. 13, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by comingback View Post
    This is perhaps one of the most uneducated comments I have ever read. As a spouse of a government employee I am very aware of how the economy can affect government employees. Have you ever worked for the government?
    It took 3 years after the collapse of the financial markets for anyone to suggest cuts to state, federal and local workers. Three years of the first world hemorraghing jobs. Three years of horrible conditions for everyone else before anyone even thought of cutting back on teachers, or reducing hours for cops. They are insulated from the effects of the wider economy. I'm not saying they should be fired summarily, I'm just saying it's a fact. Sure, government employees aren't completely unaffected by the economy. I was affected by Sandy. But if I met someone who rode out the hurricane in Atlantic City, I'd just shut my big maw about how much I suffered.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  18. #138
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    Apr. 3, 2006
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    Spooner, WI
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    In a nutshell, I did whatever I had to do to have my ultimate goal e.i. my own farm. I am a college drop out with a tech degree in electronics that has not been not used in over 20 years. I had my own business, couldn't handle the stress. Stress is not my friend.

    I moved and bought land in a low tax BFE part of my high tax state. I forwent a true career because of the time constraints of a career. My horses/animals have always come first, I have no children.

    My income has varied marriage/divorce. I was a QA tech for a lumber mill 17 years ending that career at 50-60K per year. All in all I nearly have what I always dreamed of having for under 100K per year, some years half of that plus paying off ex-husbands that didn't pass muster. Blue collar worker my entire life and I wouldn't change a thing.

    My horsey life has been mostly solitary. Not much local goings on that interests me. That sacrifice has made me a much better horsewoman than I would have been had I had the support many enjoy in horse country. However, I was farm raised so had a leg up.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  19. #139
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    Oct. 26, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by vacation1 View Post
    It took 3 years after the collapse of the financial markets for anyone to suggest cuts to state, federal and local workers. Three years of the first world hemorraghing jobs. Three years of horrible conditions for everyone else before anyone even thought of cutting back on teachers, or reducing hours for cops. They are insulated from the effects of the wider economy.
    Wrong--my school district started laying off/cutting budgets 11 years ago. My salary has been going DOWN due to the increasing cost of health insurance (shocker!--teachers contribute to their health care coverage). We also are required to contribute approx. nine percent of our salary for retirement. Finally, we don't get "three months paid vacation"--we simply aren't paid for those months (nine-month contract).

    Oh, and as prices go up due to the "wider economy," we have to pay those higher prices just like everyone else. The "automatic" pay increases we receive (if they aren't frozen because of budget reductions) are based on gaining experience and education. (I increased in experience and earned my MA but my salary still has gone DOWN.)

    PS--The teacher I co-taught a remediation program with was let go to cut the budget. He didn't get his position back (it was never filled), nor have any of the teachers we have let go.

    As far as the horses--with a MA and experience, as a HS teacher I earn enough to own a very nice hunter. But, I can't afford to show her. If the economy in my state doesn't stabilize soon, I don't know what her and my future holds...
    "And now . . .off to violin-land, where all is sweetness and delicacy and harmony and there are no red-headed clients to vex us with their conundrums."


    1 members found this post helpful.

  20. #140
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    Jan. 14, 2012
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    I am a pharmacist. I've been at it awhile (34 yrs) so I graduated with a Bachelor's. Now, a pharmacy degree is known as a Pharm.D. and is a 6 year program. I make about 100K per year working 72hrs per 2 week PP. I work in a hospital which I much prefer over retail even though hospital pharmacy pays less than retail. The beauty of the profession is that there are lots of opportunites for different practice venues.

    The job market isn't as robust as it was but it is still much better than the general job market.

    I could do lots with my one horse but prefer to be somewhat more frugal looking toward retirement in a few years. I board at a cheap barn, only take a lesson every other week, do limited local showing and am more than happy and occupied with that. I thought about vet school long, long ago and after working with a local vet one summer decided that I was not cut out for that job and would prefer to get my horse fix as a hobby and not a vocation.

    Susan


    1 members found this post helpful.

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