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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoDQhere View Post
    Not quite sure of the point you are trying to make here. Most Amateurs don't buy foals, raise them or start them. They (in my experience) tend to buy sane, sound, rideable horses that are under saddle and ready, or at least close to ready, to show. They also are the most numerous "potential customers" in the horse industry so I sure wouldn't be painting them all with such a broad brush.
    How to put this?

    Anyone who's been around while knows that it is difficult to make a declarative sentence that embodies exactly what you believe, and includes all the nuances and distinctions that you also don’t mean, without writing a book.

    Sometimes you have to go back and clarify things.

    About “amateur market”… no, I do not mean that amateurs deserve (or will even purchase) mediocre horses. NO one should intentionally be breeding mediocrity. Such a breeder is essentially breeding for the meat man, and they should rot in hell first. But I see a marked distinction between “good breeders” and breeders who think they’re going to make a fast buck breeding a living animal, without the foundation of generations of purpose bred animals and the financial means to do the right thing in each and every circumstance, for each and every animal they create. These types of “in it for a buck, and I’m on a financial shoestring and hope someone offers me $$$$$ for my still wet baby because of the sire I chose” breeders create misery and heartache for all of us.

    That is markedly different than a knowledge breeder, who knows their bloodlines up and down, inside out, knows the market for what they produce… and produces for that specific market… and can care for the animal while waiting for that perfect sale. In the context of horses, that means the breeder has the physical environment (farm) and the means and ability to do right by the horse, at each incremental developmental stage, which includes quality training to truly enhance the value of the horse, until the horse sells to a good home. That is not often a profitable situation. You have to be breeding for some other reason than the “profit” from the sale.

    In the years we’ve been involved, we’ve seen some great examples of great breeders… and they would probably tell you that it costs just as much to raise and train a $20 horse as a $50K horse, so that it makes more sense to breed for the superior talent, and deal with what the breeding produces, knowing all that while that the breeding must stay within the parameters of producing a talented, versatile horse that people can ride and enjoy being around (which to me is an amateur’s horse).

    Regardless of your standard of perfection, be it Totilas, Farouche, Chacco Blue, Cento, For Pleasure or an Almé descendant, or some combination of the R-D-W lines with an infusion of SH or Florestan… there are a handful of riders in the world that can ride at the top level. Just doing the math, if you are breeding for them, you are very likely going to be disappointed. But a few levels down from them is a market worth shooting for. The difference between the upper level horse and a versatile athletic horse with a great mind that a wider range of riders can ride is not so great that you can’t have both goals in a breeding program. That said, the difference between 1.40m horse and a 1.60m horse is the Grand Canyon.
    Last edited by Cartier; Mar. 10, 2013 at 09:37 AM.


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  2. #102
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    Mar. 12, 2006
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    Western South Dakota
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    Cartier, that is a much better explanation and I'd have to say I agree with you!


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  3. #103
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    Jan. 1, 2010
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    Ok I am glad that the amateur thing was clarified. I was almost offended! I train, ride, and show all my own horses, with help from the ground of a great trainer. My horses live at my house, and I do all the work. I can ride, and have FEI goals that will be realized this year. How I earn my living doesn't speak to how I ride, etc. Please keep breeding horses that I can train and ride at home and make it into the big ring! I, for one appreciate all the hard work that goes into producing these type of horses. I bought a mare that I thought about breeding to create another prospect for myself. After much consideration, I decided to leave the breeding up to the breeders, and I for one will buy my next prospect. Now I'm off to ride that lovely mare I bought from a US breeder! Thanks again as she is the highlight of my day!


    9 members found this post helpful.

  4. #104
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    Feb. 4, 2003
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    Oxford, MD USA
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    Gosh 4wdnstraight, that's just what we breeders love to hear and why we keep doing it
    Have a great ride!


    3 members found this post helpful.

  5. #105
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    Apr. 4, 2006
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    An American Living In Ireland
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    I get where Cartier is coming from. Because on this very board over the years people have said they want to breed for the 2.6-3 ft Ammie market. You can't possibly set the bar lower in terms of sporthorse breeding. And if you want to do that then in your calculations of costs needs to be keeping, raising, and training til 5.

    The term "hobby breeder" has such condescending tones on this board. It simply means your main income is not depending on breeding as an income. It does not mean you can't produce very nice horses. I know a few hobby breeders here that breed top class horses. It's a bonus not a living. Perhaps if people didn't think in such absolutes less disasters wouldn't happen.

    But that's part of the problem, the assumptions. Hobby breeder= not very serious and inferior stock. Play groom at shows to save money=lets snigger at her because she can't really afford this. And don't get me started on the "trainer" culture. You can't poop without a trainer's permission back home. Probably costs you too. And then people wonder why everything is so expensive and out of reach.

    Any game plan for people who don't have superior producing or competition mares in the barn needs to add up all the costs of conception through 4yo with some competition record too. If the numbers are scary walk away. That's the reality. All that price will increase after weaning, very little market for yearlings and 2yo's no matter what your costs are. And really until under saddle. There's a reason over here horses grow up in the wilds til they're 3. It costs less. Breeders don't start keeping a tab. Oh I know it isn't fair but to give that horse the best possible chance of being what he/she was bred to be you will have to show people. Even more so in the current climate.

    Cartier, great posts.

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #106
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    Feb. 3, 2000
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    Nokesville, VA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cartier View Post
    Amateurs should not be raising foals, amateurs should not be training young horses. Amateurs will ruin a young horse, which guarantees a life time of misery for the horse.
    What a sweeping, and insulting, generalization.

    Remember that the definition of Amateur has everything to do with what you get paid for, and nothing to do with your talent.


    Regardless of one’s equestrian skills and/or accomplishments, a person is an amateur if his 18th birthday, as defined in GR101, he has not engaged in any of the activities identified in paragraph 4 below.
    There are plenty of Amateurs who are capable of raising foals, training young horses without ruining them, and producing competent, successful, sport horses.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


    4 members found this post helpful.

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Equilibrium View Post
    I get where Cartier is coming from. Because on this very board over the years people have said they want to breed for the 2.6-3 ft Ammie market. You can't possibly set the bar lower in terms of sporthorse breeding. And if you want to do that then in your calculations of costs needs to be keeping, raising, and training til 5.
    Terri
    I have inferred it two different ways

    1. I wanna make horses that are not so hot and a little easier to rider
    2.I wanna make less than $100,000 5 yo horses.

    both of which I dig totally...I would not tell a pro breeder what or how to do something any more than I would epect someone with 6 rows of cabbage to tell me how to farm because when it is full time with no fall back job/income/trust fund
    the outlook does change

    but then here's the deal...just like I am one of a TINY handful of full time farmers so also is America equipped with only a small handful of full time breeder/horse folks who have no outside income sources (inheritance/trust funds/husbands job/stealing from small towns ) what do they do and how do they do it...those are the business models to talk about
    best
    Tamara
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.


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  8. #108
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    Oct. 4, 2003
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    Oklahoma
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    <sigh> My list was for what the average small breeder would pay to get a young horse in the ring. Most are not "large scale farms".

    Many show facilities will not allow for bedding to be brought on the grounds and there is no option but to purchase bedding from the facility. Some even require that hay be purchased at the facility. This is stated in the prize lists. Why in the world would your trainer provide bedding for free??? That makes no sense at all. Even if they are considering that it is covered under your board rate, they are still out of pocket for the labor to load, unload, and transport as well as fuel for the vehicle used to transport it.

    Please list the many hunter/jumper trainers who charge much less for day and trainers fees.

    And which professional haulers give significant discounts for large scale farms?

    The nominating fee would include the young jumper divisions.

    The reason for competing a young horse is for mileage/experience as well as exposure to potential buyers. It is not always about the blue ribbon but that is certainly the ultimate goal.

    When a trainer brings a camper, there are more expenses than just the show camper fee. There are the expenses to transport the camper to the show site as well as pump/clean out fees. There is the cost of the camper and vehicle to pull the camper as well as maintenance for both (tires, oil changes, repairs, etc.). There is still per diem for daily food expenses for trainer and groom(s).

    Again, please list those "A" trainers who don't charge $1200 to $2000 per month for board and training.



    Quote Originally Posted by PINE TREE FARM SC View Post
    I think you missed the point ( again).
    Why would I pay for bedding when my trainer supplies it for free?
    If you want to pay that much for trainer fees go for it but understand that many trainers charge much, much less than the fee you quoted.
    No tip for the groom. it's included. If you get sucked into paying extra expenses again that's up to you but realize there is no standard deal ( no matter what your trainer tells you)

    I usually have horses showing in two states on a given weekend and i show up and down the East Coast. Zones 1-4.

    I did mention shipping. 800 miles each way. Quite inexpensive, Shippers give discounts for large scale farms.

    Nominating fee is not in every division.

    If the horse can't win some prize money back why compete?

    Trainer brings a camper. $185 a show at Aiken divided by the number of horses showing. Usually $18.5 a week.

    Board and training at $2000 a month? LMAO. I'm sure you can make a better deal than that.
    Silver Creek Farms - home of Apiro & Validation
    Visit us on facebook!


    4 members found this post helpful.

  9. #109
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    Aug. 15, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by showjumpers66 View Post
    <Again, please list those "A" trainers who don't charge $1200 to $2000 per month for board and training.
    Even "B" trainers... If you are big enough to bring in your own trainer, it will cost you less (per horse), but otherwise, by the time you tack on board, you are lucky to get by for $1200/month! And if you are looking at a bigger name trainer, add in groom fees, turnout fees, and you are easily at $1800 to $2000. I think your numbers are pretty realistic.



  10. #110
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    Feb. 3, 2000
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    Nokesville, VA
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    Quote Originally Posted by showjumpers66 View Post
    <sigh>
    Many show facilities will not allow for bedding to be brought on the grounds and there is no option but to purchase bedding from the facility. Some even require that hay be purchased at the facility. This is stated in the prize lists.
    This would be a violation of USEF rules. I know it happens, but it is NOT supposed to.


    GR1216 7. Subject to local law and contract requirements, any owner or trainer stabled on
    the grounds of a competition must be permitted to haul in hay, grain and bedding,
    meeting management’s specifications as published in the prize list, for his own use,
    and use any farrier or veterinarian of his choice.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #111
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    Jun. 25, 2004
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    Originally Posted by Cartier "Amateurs should not be raising foals, amateurs should not be training young horses. Amateurs will ruin a young horse, which guarantees a life time of misery for the horse."

    If I understand the rest of your posts properly, you are really referring to the the inexperienced rider rather than an amateur. As Janet rightly noted, in the USEF world an amateur is defined by monies earned, not by ability or accomplishments. Personally I know very talented amateurs who have started young horses very nicely and can out-ride most professionals. True many of these folks have the benefit of family or spouse money or in some cases their own early financial successes.

    If one is breeding for the 'amateur", then in my opinion one is looking for the so-called level-headed, forgiving temperment in a talented, solid-citizen. Which is probably the same horse most pros would love to ride. So why not breed that horse anyway? Even knowing with full-siblings some will be more tempermental than others.
    "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
    Courtesy my cousin Tim


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  12. #112
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    Nov. 30, 2005
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    Northfield MN
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    It's too bad this type of thread tends to get snarky because there is some really good information here.

    FWIW, I have never paid a nominating fee for a Young Jumper class and my rider carefully selects any warm-up divisions to avoid the fee as well.

    I would also like to counter the unsuccessful experiences of previous posters in forming mutually attractive partnerships to get young stock to the show ring. I have done this with my daughter since my first foal, but have also made similar arrangements with another professional. I have not been disappointed with the results.

    I think some of the conflicting information on this topic arises from the differences in the Dressage, H/J, and Eventing markets. For me, it is key that I am quite familiar with my market and have good connections there.

    The one thing we all agree on is the USEF one horse/one number. I would love to see us set aside our differences in a effort to get something done to encourage proper transfers of ownership and name changes. As registration is not mandatory in the US as it is in Europe, requiring papers should not be part of the process in the open disciplines.


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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    What a sweeping, and insulting, generalization.

    Remember that the definition of Amateur has everything to do with what you get paid for, and nothing to do with your talent.




    There are plenty of Amateurs who are capable of raising foals, training young horses without ruining them, and producing competent, successful, sport horses.
    We are talking apples and oranges. Your definition of “amature” is not the one I was using. What you are speaking of is often an incredibly professional, informed, skilled, experienced individual, who has retained a specific status with some organizing body, but is otherwise not an amateur in any sense related to skill level or ability. In my posts above I am speaking of something that is almost the polar opposite, a very generic definition of amateur, i.e., someone without skills and experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by tuckawayfarm View Post
    The one thing we all agree on is the USEF one horse/one number.
    I agree. I think all breeders agree with this.



  14. #114
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    Feb. 3, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cartier View Post
    In my posts above I am speaking of something that is almost the polar opposite, a very generic definition of amateur, i.e., someone without skills and experience.
    Maybe it would be clearer, then, to say "inexperienced" instead of "amateur".
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  15. #115

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    or beginner....

    Tamara
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.


    2 members found this post helpful.

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