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  1. #61
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    Sep. 18, 2002
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    I breed for eventers, so here is my take:

    My friend had a similar offer from a pro as Marydell: where the rider/professional offered they start at 50/50 and by the end the owner owns nothing and the owner paid all the bills up to that level. That might make sense if the breeder had a lot of stock left at home, and needed one to get out there to be seen. But this rider owned ONE horse, not ever going to be international quality, neither was trainer. I didn't think it sounded like a good win-win for both and told my friend not to do it.

    I have one that I didn't breed, but I own her and obviously super talented. I showed her to training level eventing, so I can obviously start my own, but I am letting a young professional ride her because I have no desire to show at preliminary level or higher (43, two young kids). Since the mare is at my farm, my only cost increase is the training and shows. I would not expect her to be ridden for free. It is still expensive, but for now I am fronting the costs while networking for sponsors or to form a syndicate. The rider will benefit (her upper level horse is retired), and the breeder benefits from having a lovely mare showing and the breeder still owns mare and frozen on dad (and has siblings for sale).

    I MIGHT benefit if I have the money to ever do ET or add this lovely mare to my breeding program. Unfortunately, while this mare is qualifed for a CCI* as a pony and is only 9, I don't have funds to have her bred. Ideally I would use ET to get an embryo this spring (she is due for a month of down time in May) and will be ready for Intermediate when she goes back to work. No money for both.

    Hopefully this mare won't get hurt and at some point, when her competitive career is over, I will get some nice babies out of her. I am making the choice to compete her as far as she will go, with the limited funds I have, and hope that she doesn't get hurt and not end up producing.

    I am also riding and training a 4 year old I bred in the hopes that eventers at shows will be interested and I can tell them about her lovely relatives at home. That is a big IF, as I find eventers don't want to spend a lot of money on a youngster with great brains and athleticism. The good news is that a 2* rider recently asked if she was for sale (no) but at least I am getting decent feedback on the quality of what I have produced. The bad news is I might just have to keep selling them after they have run a beginner novice or two.
    Beth Davidson
    Black Dog Farm Connemaras & Sport Horses
    http://blackdogconnemara.com
    visit my blog: http://ponyeventer.blogspot.com


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  2. #62
    Join Date
    May. 14, 2004
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    North Carolina
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    1,371

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    Thanks Diane for the kind words!

    JER "If a breeder is consistently having trouble finding riders/trainers for their horses, I think it's worth noting that the common denominator there is the breeder."

    What has happened to me over 20 years of doing this is any of the following: the trainer gets older, has an accident, moves facilities due to cost,trainer has gone up the levels and no longer wants the risk of starting horses, uses draw reins, does not get on the horse for several months, horse gets injured and owner not notified because they live a distance away(first notice was the vet bill) and so on. Just for the record, all of the above were people I knew or were highly reccomended to me from people I trust.

    I want to be able to speak with a trainer who has my horses at the very least, once a week. Not have to call, leave messages, textys, etc. That seems to be the way that the younger people feel is appropriate communication. Not going to fly with most breeders.
    Seigi (Brava!)hit the nail on the head-- there are very few young horse trainers who want this work and do the job correctly.


    I will not use a cowboy, been there, done that and paid the price.
    I want someone who will give a young horse a positive experience. Not "lets give this a chance and see where it goes." The price that a horse pays for a negative beginning is lengthy and costly, both physically and finacially.

    Of course anyone doing a job should be paid in one form or another. Breeders in general are cash poor. Some years ago,I used a very talented young rider who was working with an FEI rider. I was billed $800 board and training. Once the person went out on their own, they wanted $800 just for the training, board and expenses on top of that!

    I am happy to pay the price if the facility is safe--no wire fencing, appropriate turnout and a decent arena with some form of shelter. I want clean hay and water, not a tank left to run dry or slimy. I want a good concentrate and not the local mills cheapest available. I am happy to pay for the talent and time the rider puts in.

    All that being said, if you look at all these posts about how there are riders available, breeders need to pay,it all just highlights the problem that we as breeders face and that the average consumer does not recognise because they have no first hand experience of breeding, foaling, raising and risk that the breeder does.
    Maryanna Haymon- Marydell Farm - Home to Don Principe & Doctor Wendell MF
    www.marydellfarm.com
    2012 USDF Champion Breeder! 2007, 2011 USEF Champ Breeder
    2009,2010,2011 USDF Res Breeder of the Year!


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  3. #63
    Join Date
    Apr. 4, 2006
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    An American Living In Ireland
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    I definitely wouldn't do deals with anyone. Either I pay for training or sell. Those are the only two reasonable options.

    Siegi makes good points. As usual.

    Marydell, only comment I'm going to make on your food thing is that concentrates in a big fancy bag don't actually suit all horses if you want to be specific. I don't particularly like soya, wheat feed, and molasses rolled up into a shiny bag for my horses. But since I've done extensive research on feeding straights and getting the vits, mins, and proteins right, I don't need someone assuming people who feed this way are cheap and can't be bothered. But that's part of the problem isn't it? Assuming that's the wrong way. These thousands of different feeds and balancers are a recent phenomenon. Like last 15-20 years. My horses get a 70% 30% oat barley mix from the local farmer I get my haylage from. Unmolassed beet and a low sugar/starch chaff plus ground flax, a vit and min supplement, and all get a stomach buffer. They get a mix of hay and haylage ad lib. The ground this year will be getting seaweed fert with some lime. So I'm guessing if I were back home we wouldn't be good enough for you. But your loss because we do a damn fine job and have happy horses that have gone on to be very good in their respective fields for clients. And even for the clients who just wanted safe riding horses and ponies. Because we don't judge and make assumptions about people. We just love to see happy horses and owners.

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.


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  4. #64
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    Jan. 29, 2000
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    Brownsburg, VA
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    PM me with your email Terri, and I'll send you pictures of what happens when the trainer switches to the local cheap-ass mill feed on my growing filly. There is nothing wrong with your feeding program, but that is NOT what Marydell is talking about.
    "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin



  5. #65
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2003
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    Deep South
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    I don't get this at all. If a breeder is consistently having trouble finding riders/trainers for their horses, I think it's worth noting that the common denominator there is the breeder.
    finding COMPETENT, EDUCATED riders/trainers.
    ... _. ._ .._. .._


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  6. #66
    Join Date
    May. 2, 2012
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    AIKEN SC
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    [QUOTE=DownYonder;6874768

    I somewhat agree with this, but USEF feels its Breeders Committee is all that is needed. The organization does not seem to want to put a lot of focus or effort or $$$ in helping breeders.

    QUOTE]

    How would you know that?

    The USEF Breeding committee covers ALL disciplines and breeds. It certainly has nothing to do with being a support group exclusively for WB breeders.
    In the cases where there is a real breed with one single unified national registry ( ASB for example) that 'breed' gets to make up it's own rules and restrict competition to horses who are in their registry. The national group sets specs and judging standards. You can not set rules that impact other groups in USEF's umbrella( especially when their population within USEF may greatly exceed WB).

    WB is on the opposite side of the fence. It is not a unified registry and horses in that category compete in many disciplines instead of a single division. The disciplines that controls competition ( USHJA, USEA, USDF) are the ones that set the rules about recording requirements, not a breed group.

    USHJA has had a Hunter Breeding Committee since they started up. Silver Balls is involved with that. Recently there was a restructure of the committee level functions at USHJA and the Jumper discipline will have a bit more structure to their program and perhaps have their own Breeding committee.

    Look to your discipline affiliates to provide structure, not USEF.
    Fan of Sea Accounts



  7. #67
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    Jun. 14, 2006
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    here, there, everywhere
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER
    I don't get this at all. If a breeder is consistently having trouble finding riders/trainers for their horses, I think it's worth noting that the common denominator there is the breeder.

    What's wrong with people wanting to be paid for their work? If you don't like the price, go elsewhere. Due diligence -- looking into whether the rider/trainer can actually do what they claim to do -- is the breeder's responsibility. Again, if you don't think their program is legit, go elsewhere.

    It's not difficult to find the right series of riders/trainers for your horses. (It probably is difficult if you're not willing to pay for their services.) It's simple networking. You contact a rider if you think they're appropriate, you talk about the horse and fees, you make a decision. Then you check in on the process, and if you like what you see, the horse stays. If the horse needs something different, you find something else.

    But this is how you prove your horses' worth and ability. This is how you get a reputation for having good youngstock. This is how a breeder gets the feedback to refine and adjust their breeding program to produce horses better suited for their discipline.
    I'm going to have to agree with JER on this one. Marydell, with all due respect, you sound like you'd be a very high maintenance client. The type to second guess everything, assume the worst, demand the best, and then balk at paying a fair rate because trainers should be thrilled just to be sitting on one of your horses. I provide all that you demand, and I've trained horses thru Grand Prix, and can still start a youngster and bring him up the levels too. I wouldn't have a client who comes off the way you have in your posts here. (Not that it matters, I'm going out on a limb to say you'd think I'm too expensive anyhow, since full training would run you around $1500/month.)

    I don't think Marydell's attitude is unique, rather I think it highlights a self imposed problem facing some breeders.

    I'm a breeder as well as a trainer, so I live both sides. I realize it's hard for breeders to make a profit, but it's not up to the trainer to subsidize you either. If you can't train them yourself you need to budget for training. It's even more aggravating to see people who breed year after year, register the foals and take them to inspections, knowing ALL of that costs money, but they've got a field full of unbroken five year olds and they say they can't afford a trainer, and even once they do send their horses to a trainer they are now behind schedule in their training, so next they complain when they see someone go to Europe to buy a 3 or 4 yr old instead who's doing as much as their 5 yr old.

    Quote Originally Posted by siegi b.
    1. We do not breed in generations - when I quit breeding it will be the end of Stall Europa because there is no family member anxious to take over the business.
    Interesting quandry. I'd guess many breeders don't have interested family to follow in their footprints, but what about mentoring, taking a new breeder under your wing who could take over the reins? It is a shame to think of a program like yours closing down and putting out the "Retired" sign. Perhaps we need a mentoring program, or a way for new breeders to connect with established ones. (Is there already something like this?)

    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder
    And I will also say this again - for the umpteenth time. If USEF ever gets serious about helping breeders in this country, it will enact a "one horse, one number for life" rule, it will ensure that horses getting USEF IDs are positively ID'd, it will charge extremely hefty extra fees to record/register horses that don't provide a copy of registration papers, and it will make sure its database is robust enough to accurately match horses, bloodlines, etc., etc., so the rankings it turns out every year will be of true value to everyone involved in producing sport horses - whether it is breeders, buyers, Y/H trainers, UL riders, whomever.
    YES YES YES. One horse one number.

    Lastly, fwiw, it appears the USEF Breeder Committee is attempting to focus on ALL sports and ALL breeds, with everything from reiners to Arabian breeders to top Warmblood and sport trainers and breeders on the same committee. I think the scope is too big and they'd have better luck to at least perhaps split off the English disciplines and the sport horses into one group.
    "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns


    2 members found this post helpful.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Nov. 16, 2012
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    198

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    "Honestly, I could care a less about your money woes. Horses are very rarely money makers."

    I find this to be a very short sighted statement. If a a breeder cannot make a small profit, it makes no sense to run the business. Where do people think their horses will come from if there are no breeders - if only those who don't need to make an income breed I would expect their won't be much choice on the market.


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  9. #69
    Join Date
    Nov. 19, 2005
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    "(Not that it matters, I'm going out on a limb to say you'd think I'm too expensive anyhow, since full training would run you around $1500/month.)"

    I dont think anyone object to trainers getting paid but it is a problem to compete with those types of cost against europe. You have a young horse with a trainer for one to two years and you have $18,000-36,000 in training alone in the one horse. How does that compare to Europe? Commercially in Europe would the typical breeder (many small breeders/farmer) put that type of money out and stay in business?'\
    Last edited by omare; Mar. 7, 2013 at 09:03 PM. Reason: oops I can do math


    5 members found this post helpful.

  10. #70
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    Oct. 4, 2003
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    Oklahoma
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    That's correct. A year of training and showing in Europe is $10,000 to $20,000 per year to bring one along in the young jumper classes. In the US, it is $30,000 to $50,000 per year to do the same with an equal number of young jumper classes.
    Silver Creek Farms - home of Apiro & Validation
    Visit us on facebook!



  11. #71
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    Jan. 25, 2011
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    Southern Pines, NC
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    I normally just lurk on SHB, but I'm always interested in discussions involving a lack of good young horse trainers and issues connected horses to the right people.

    Has anyone here looked at the Eventing Owner's Committee website? It offers a place for riders, owners, and horses to network and find each other. There are categories with horses looking to be syndicated, owners looking to buy into syndicates or whole horses, and riders looking for horses or who have a horse they'd like to syndicate or ride for an owner.

    Could there be/is there already something similar for talented young horses? It seems like part of the problem might be networking between riders and breeders, at least from the limited perspective I have.
    I've heard there's more to life than an FEI tent and hotel rooms, so I'm trying it.


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  12. #72
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    Jan. 13, 2003
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    Pinecone - I had to laugh at your comment about Marydell - she is one of the most successful breeders of WB's - your comment that she's too high maintenance was rude. I've been breeding for 26 years and haven't really seen a big improvement in the young horse training in this country in that time. Alot of people bragging on these boards or hanging out a "Trainer" shingle isn't enough. And to those people who make snarky remarks about Breeders who don't back their own horses.....................give yourself a few decades and you'll come to make the decision that there comes a time when starting young horses isn't a choice.

    I like otheres have been burned by some Trainers and had a couple horses ruinted in the process. I think most long time breeders could write books about this So if we are wlling to pay the high training fees - we expect top quality service.

    And as far as this USEF Breeder's Committee - just another waste of money that could be put into giving us the ONE NUMBER for each horse or pony for life system that we lack. I think it provides a few individuals with a title, pays for them to attend some meetings and in the long run - no benefits will come to the Breeders. If all the people on this committee are NOT breeding horses themselves (i.e. they own them) then what benefit is this to those of us who are active "hands on" breeders?

    Even Mr. Pollard's concept that some new Committee should tell Breeders's what they should be breeding. HAH! The old saying "a Camel is is horse designed by a Committee" comes to mind.

    I put lifetime USEF #'s on all the horses I breed - expensive YES! Why do i do it ? To at least be acknowledged when the horses I've bred do well in competition. I very often put USDF AND USEA lifetime #'s on them as well. But I can tell you I have to double check all the time to make sure that information is correct. As others have stated we MUST HAVE a ONE # FOR EACH HORSE FOR LIFE - that tracks them through their competition career regardless of disciplines. It's so idiotic that this exists in other countries - THAT ARE BEATING US IN HIGH PERFORMANCE - but the knotheads at the USEF/USDF ETC. can't seem to fix what's broken.
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"


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  13. #73
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    Mar. 12, 2006
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    Western South Dakota
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    Quote Originally Posted by ise@ssl View Post
    I put lifetime USEF #'s on all the horses I breed - expensive YES! Why do i do it ? To at least be acknowledged when the horses I've bred do well in competition. I very often put USDF AND USEA lifetime #'s on them as well. But I can tell you I have to double check all the time to make sure that information is correct. As others have stated we MUST HAVE a ONE # FOR EACH HORSE FOR LIFE - that tracks them through their competition career regardless of disciplines. It's so idiotic that this exists in other countries - THAT ARE BEATING US IN HIGH PERFORMANCE - but the knotheads at the USEF/USDF ETC. can't seem to fix what's broken.
    This ^^. Until our USEF does this it will always be an uphill battle for breeders. Every horse leaves this farm with their lifetime USEF number. Sometimes it stays with them, but since it is CHEAPER to get a HID than transfer ownership, guess what happens to a lot of them? Once those fees have been paid (to the registries as well as USEF) why is it so expensive for the new owner to transfer ownership? Or change the name so the number stays the same? It is nothing but a "dime and dollar" pain in the you know where for everyone. Instead of some new committee, how do we get USEF to do something that might actually be effective?


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  14. #74
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    Aug. 28, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherian View Post
    "Honestly, I could care a less about your money woes. Horses are very rarely money makers."

    I find this to be a very short sighted statement. If a a breeder cannot make a small profit, it makes no sense to run the business. Where do people think their horses will come from if there are no breeders - if only those who don't need to make an income breed I would expect their won't be much choice on the market.
    Horse breeding in this country of the type discussed here is basically going to be a hobby business for most. If you can't see that then it's time to take off the rose colored glasses and put on some real ones. If I was a breeder I'd be thrilled to break even and produce good horses for people to ride. And yes I know how much it costs to breed a horse and raise it from the ground up, and that horses cost money. I've owned horses for many years.

    If a breeder can't find some way to make a business work, well, that is their problem. The world won't end if that breeder and a bunch like them quit breeding, and it'll still be possible to find good horses.



  15. #75
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    Jan. 28, 2003
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    williston, sc usa
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    Wow, lots of information in this thread - some makes me want to scratch my head. Here are my 2 cents.

    We, as US breeders, produce really nice horses
    We, as US breeders, can not afford to pay $ 1,200 - whatever to get a horse started.
    We, as US rider, would love to ride quality US bred horses.

    So, how do we, as US breeders/riders/competitors, get together for the good of OUR sport ?

    Here is my example - I contacted my longtime friend and fellow breeder Maryanna Haymon when I was looking to find my next high quality youngster. I knew, that Maryanna is always looking to help talented/experienced professional who do not have the big sponsor/money.

    We got together and partnered up - our first partnership resulted in me becoming owner of De Luetje MF (Don Principe/Londonderry), 2012 USEA Future Event Horse Champion, third in 2012 USDF Three Year old Horse of the Year standing. De Luetje MF is currently being prepped for 2013 USEA Young Event Horse 4 year old Championship by Mollie Zobel, a talented Eventing professional who incidentally also co-owns my homebred Eventer Raison de Croire.

    The second one is Sao Tome MF - Sir Donnerhall/De Niro/Grande - this one is owned by the Sao Tome Syndicate ( myself, along with Maryanna and Wendell Haymon) Is she picky where her horses go - YES, why wouldn't she be ? Does she know what she is doing - YES. Do I agree with her on everything - NO. But at the end of the day, I ( as a rider/competitor) am deeply grateful for breeders like Marydell Farms, who make the effort to produce top quality US bred horses.
    Perfection is not attainable, but when we chase perfection, we can catch excellence - Vince Lombardi

    www.thehomestedt.com


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  16. #76
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    Feb. 9, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by showjumpers66 View Post
    That's correct. A year of training and showing in Europe is $10,000 to $20,000 per year to bring one along in the young jumper classes. In the US, it is $30,000 to $50,000 per year to do the same with an equal number of young jumper classes.
    THIS and what Terri said!! It is a huge difference and disadvantage for US bred horses. At this point, I do not see how we move towards equal footing without addressing this issue, and I'm not sure we can. We are also at a serious geographical disadvantage for showing and breeder concentration. Third, the tracking--USEF number issue is a critical problem. It is also the easiest of the three to start addressing via the cost structure.

    Someone asked about how upper level riders find horses. My observation has been word-of-mouth via their trainers' (multiple) network. Also, the recent VDL auction drives home that for the wealthy it is about the experience. People aren't just buying a horse, they are buying the experience and prestige. But that is getting away from the main point of the OP.
    Siouxland Sporthorses: http://slsfarm.blogspot.com/

    DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/



  17. #77
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    Aug. 27, 2012
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    Cool Geez

    I don't post often, I just like to read and gather info, but I have to interject here....What originally started as a thread on an article by MP, seems to have devolved in to a bash Marydell thread, by some.....WTH? Do you even know her? Are you even aware of her credentials, of which there are many? Numerous breeder of the year awards.....her horses are competing at top levels...and the youngsters she has right now? Lookout! Hand picked by upper level riders/trainers to participate in select events in Wellington. I've known her for 10 years, and have recently fallen in love with and purchased a soon to be elite mare from her.........She has bent over backwards for me.....tough, yes, demanding, yes....BECAUSE, it's about the horse! She is not a breeder that just wants a check.....She cares about to whom and where that horse goes.....SO before you pass judgement on those you don't know, or maybe you DO know and you just have whatever petty ax you feel you have to grind....At any rate, the bashing looks foolish and immature....please get back to the main subject at hand of the article....


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  18. #78
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    Oct. 21, 2003
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    No one is bashing marydell, if you read between the lines it's quite the opposite. I would guve just about anything for one of her horses, but could not afford a few grand in 2010 to travel to her farm when I couldn't get a response from her that made it worth my while. I had been burned by local breeders that were supposedly good.

    I love her horses. Totally love Diora and her offspring. She breeds all my favorite bloodlines. But I was turned off by being made to feel unworthy of a minute of her time. Maybe I am?

    Like I said, I don't mean to single her out because most breeders come off the same way, as if they are doing you a favor even talking to you.



  19. #79
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    Aug. 15, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    I don't get this at all. If a breeder is consistently having trouble finding riders/trainers for their horses, I think it's worth noting that the common denominator there is the breeder.

    What's wrong with people wanting to be paid for their work? .
    There just really aren't that many people who start young horses and do it right. Sorry, it is just the plain ol' truth. And when the breeder does find that person - often they reach the point where they don't want to start young horses anymore, so they delegate it to their assistant, their groom, whomever who is not as skilled. And then you say it is the breeder's issue? Don't automatically blame the breeder - it is the way of trainers in the US. Not sure I blame THEM either - who wants to start young horses year after year after year? It is higher risk, lower glory.

    As for paying - I think it really comes down to - breeding is probably the lowest-profit potential of any horse business, yet without breeders, would we have sport horses? WIthout US breeders, the ONLY choice would be importing. Does anyone here remember how much it cost to buy a Warmblood in the 70s? Before there were many US breeders? All riders should thank the US breeders for creating a more affordable marketplace.

    At this point, many breeders are actually subsidizing everyone else - we pay more then German and Dutch breeders pay for training and showing, and we often sell for the same or lesser prices. Buyers are better off because of US breeders. Trainers are better off. Of course tack companies and feed companies are better off. But the US breeder seldom breaks even or makes a profit. And many of the long time people are quitting - sure there are new people waiting to take their place, but you lose the knowledge and continuity. As Seigi points out - when she retires, there is no Siegi Jr. eagerly waiting to take over the family business.


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  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perfect Pony View Post
    Like I said, I don't mean to single her out because most breeders come off the same way, as if they are doing you a favor even talking to you.
    I can't speak for Marydell, but I am a small breeder and have several friends who are small breeders, and I can't think of a single instance where any of us "came off this way". Most of us go way out of our way to respond to interested people, to do extra pictures and videos, often as a huge time commitment (video and pictures do require at LEAST 2 people), and often to have the interested person just disappear from the face of the earth after making all the requests. I just can't imagine that most breeders would act this way.

    One recommendation I would make - if you just emailed, follow up w/ a phone call - email doesn't always make it. Many breeders live in remote areas where internet may be less then ideal - so don't assume they blew you off, follow up with another mode of communication.

    My experience with breeders has been they are highly accomodating...


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