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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tha Ridge View Post
    Dex is not forbidden and it will test.
    Using Dex as a calming agent is forbidden. But fortunately for all those hunter trainers out there, it's allowed for other things so testing is useless.



  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by dani0303 View Post
    othing major, just a head shake. The announcer kept saying he was "underprepared" and the judges scores reflected it.
    "Underprepared" ain't even a word.... unless you mean it to refer specifically to "not drugged or lunged enough" as opposed to the standard, "unprepared."
    The armchair saddler
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  3. #43
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    I think that's exactly what the announcer meant.



  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perfect10 View Post
    But when all the horses are "prepared," then what exuberance are the judges to reward? Until the horses show that exuberance, the judges will have to judge what is in front of them, regardless of whether exuberance is allowed.
    Meh, this gives the judges a moral "out" for pinning horses as they are. Nothing will ever need to change so long as we have nothing to say to the way judges do their job. Read Julie Winkel on the subject if you don't believe me. Don't forget that most of them were professional horse trainers first. IMO, they know drugged from clean in most horses.
    The armchair saddler
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    IMO, they know drugged from clean in most horses.
    I beg to differ.

    The judge has no way to tell if the horse is a natural deadhead, as some posters have described their horses, or one that is made quiet by other means.

    You can only judge what you see in front of you in the ring.


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  6. #46
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    MHM I have to disagree with you. My very quiet , slow off the ground, rythymic good ones did not look sluggish and dull. When you see a quality horse that is drugged or surpressed by other means it affects his whole demeanor. He is no longer himself. A very quiet horse is still himself.
    "Over the Hill?? What Hill, Where?? I don't remember any hill!!!" Favorite Tee Shirt


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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    IMO, they know drugged from clean in most horses.
    I doubt that. They may assume they can but I doubt they can.

    It has been shown here that most people assume that anything that is quiet and easy going must be drugged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius View Post
    MHM I have to disagree with you. My very quiet , slow off the ground, rythymic good ones did not look sluggish and dull. When you see a quality horse that is drugged or surpressed by other means it affects his whole demeanor. He is no longer himself. A very quiet horse is still himself.
    Um, so now the judge has to know what 'being himself' is too?


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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ET's Home View Post
    Claudius - but if you give up now, those drugging to win will have gained the upper hand. Find and train up horses like you had in the past - bring them to shows, have fun and not worrying about competing with the deadheads. If we all keep it up, the norm will be the ones looking alert and interested when they enter the ring.
    I agree and I'd like those who know better and can afford to have nice horses stay around in our sport and set a better example.

    But!
    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius View Post
    I too have had super quiet horses that went on to greatness. Most known were Ancient Line (HOTY) and Holy Smoke, and Sassoon. In my experience, these were unusual horses and worth a fortune. Most horses require more management than the super quiet ones. But they can be managed and produce lovely rounds.I have made many like that.
    That makes it harder to stay and sadder to leave, right? You knew all those nice horses and how they got to the ring honestly (even if they started out with the genetic goods).

    I'm torn the same way. I have this fantasy that I'll keep doing what I've always done, buy the right combination of mind-and-body and then have one more nice hunter that requires my usual No Prep. But what if the trainers are right? My old skool ways just.can't.win without the truly extraordinary horse that I can't afford and wouldn't buy even if I did have the dough.... that could send a kid to Harvard, full freight.

    Quite the existential crisis of getting old, eh?
    The armchair saddler
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    The judge has no way to tell if the horse is a natural deadhead, as some posters have described their horses, or one that is made quiet by other means.

    You can only judge what you see in front of you in the ring.
    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius View Post
    MHM I have to disagree with you. My very quiet , slow off the ground, rythymic good ones did not look sluggish and dull. When you see a quality horse that is drugged or surpressed by other means it affects his whole demeanor. He is no longer himself. A very quiet horse is still himself.
    Yabbut, all these armchair judges think that they *can* see bad prep around, or at least they can see some remarkable changes in the average way of going for the modern hunter.

    I think if you had been around watching Western Pleasure as it headed towards its nadir, you would have seen the same conversations.
    The armchair saddler
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  10. #50
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    At least there is one person on here who understands the situation. That is reassuring. So many take one statement and react and overstate their rebuttal so simplisticly that it isn't worth trying to clarify. I want to say to these people.....come here to WEF...come down here and keep your horse on the grounds. Come to your stall at all times of the day. You will see horses being hastily returned to their stall for a timely "touch up".....you will see horses leave their stalls with their heads hanging down, eyes dull , not all, but many.....and then you take your horse out of the stall and he brightens up, looks around....he acts like an aware animal. You owners of genuinely quiet horses.....look at YOUR horse's eyes when he comes to the ring....even a dead head registers interest.
    Last edited by Claudius; Mar. 6, 2013 at 01:21 PM.
    "Over the Hill?? What Hill, Where?? I don't remember any hill!!!" Favorite Tee Shirt


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  11. #51
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    I do not see anyone here saying there are not horses that are drugged. We all know drugging happens.

    It is the broad sweeping statements like "even the dead head registers interest" that are wrong and that are part of the problem, actually. People assume things that should not be assumed. People (like you) assume that the quiet (bored) horse at the in gate must be drugged.


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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    People (like you) assume that the quiet (bored) horse at the in gate must be drugged.
    My horse falls asleep at the ingate with his tongue hanging out. And sometimes he got a little slap to wake up before walking in. I'm sure that looked bad to certain people. But he sure got some nice looks when he got in the arena and did well in the JUMPERS, going fast and clean!

    Also would like to point out that I think part of this issue is tied to just using the word "drugging". There is a HUGE difference between trainers who offer a little ulcer guard + robaxin or a vitamin supplement at a horse show and someone who is using harsh or illegal medications to dangerously cover up behavioral or medical issues in the show ring. Referring to any substance given to horses at shows as "drugging" is confusing and detrimental to the sport.



  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by JumpsJumps View Post
    Also would like to point out that I think part of this issue is tied to just using the word "drugging". There is a HUGE difference between trainers who offer a little ulcer guard + robaxin or a vitamin supplement at a horse show and someone who is using harsh or illegal medications to dangerously cover up behavioral or medical issues in the show ring. Referring to any substance given to horses at shows as "drugging" is confusing and detrimental to the sport.
    "Drugging" as defined in this thread is using any medication with the intent to alter the horses mood and create a tranquilizing effect. I'm pretty sure no one (or at least not me) is faulting a trainer for giving a horse a little bute, banamine, or robaxin to keep a horse comfortable after a long week of showing.
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by dani0303 View Post
    "Drugging" as defined in this thread is using any medication with the intent to alter the horses mood and create a tranquilizing effect. I'm pretty sure no one (or at least not me) is faulting a trainer for giving a horse a little bute, banamine, or robaxin to keep a horse comfortable after a long week of showing.
    But what you are saying, is STILL drugging. It's altering their performance. Don't get me wrong here, I am ALL FOR the little bit of bute and what not to help them be less stiff- I am a runner, I take two ibuprofen the second I get home from a long run.

    I think sweeping people with a broad brush is ridiculous. No, not every time you see a horse go into a stall, get an oral/IM/IV injection does that mean the horse is "drugged" with a calming supplement (let's just stick with that type of drug). If you thought that, then well, you probably thought that when I gave my horse electrolytes orally I was drugging them. I could go on. There are so many reasons to not assume every horse is drugged. What about the gelding that just drops when he is relaxed? Mine did. But he wasn't drugged. Yes, it goes on. Yes it sucks and needs to STOP. But, not EVERYONE does it.

    OP, you are going to have to learn a good amount of people posting on here DO show at WEF and at the big shows. They KNOW what is going on, this is not new news.

    And for penalizing the brilliance? Let's not penalize it, BUT, let's keep in mind, a FIELD hunter that plays in the field after a fence? Could be dangerous- it could trip, or miss something it would have otherwise seen had it been paying attention. A playful hunter still needs to behave.



  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by dani0303 View Post
    "Drugging" as defined in this thread is using any medication with the intent to alter the horses mood and create a tranquilizing effect. I'm pretty sure no one (or at least not me) is faulting a trainer for giving a horse a little bute, banamine, or robaxin to keep a horse comfortable after a long week of showing.
    But that's not how USEF defines a drug/medication violation.
    Stacking of NSAID's can get you a vacation same as a sedative.
    So a little 'bute, banamine' is not legal. One OR the other !!

    Define a 'little' robaxin.



  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by S A McKee View Post
    But that's not how USEF defines a drug/medication violation.
    Stacking of NSAID's can get you a vacation same as a sedative.
    So a little 'bute, banamine' is not legal. One OR the other !!

    Define a 'little' robaxin.
    Funny how you cut her statement to make it sound like she said 'and'. She said exactly what you did, 'or'. Here, I'll bold for you:

    Quote Originally Posted by dani0303 View Post
    "Drugging" as defined in this thread is using any medication with the intent to alter the horses mood and create a tranquilizing effect. I'm pretty sure no one (or at least not me) is faulting a trainer for giving a horse a little bute, banamine, or robaxin to keep a horse comfortable after a long week of showing.
    *****
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  17. #57
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    On the taking them back to the stall thing - my friend had a gelding that if he was cranky while he went around you knew he had to pee and he would not pee anywhere but his stall so more than once he was hustled back to his stall between rounds. Clearly those who assume all horses taken back to their stalls must be getting some mood altering drugs would never believe it was just to take the poor guy on a pee break.


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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    Meh, this gives the judges a moral "out" for pinning horses as they are. Nothing will ever need to change so long as we have nothing to say to the way judges do their job. Read Julie Winkel on the subject if you don't believe me. Don't forget that most of them were professional horse trainers first. IMO, they know drugged from clean in most horses.
    So when all the judge sees is the drugged ones, what are they supposed to do? Not pin the whole class?



  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by dani0303 View Post
    "Drugging" as defined in this thread is using any medication with the intent to alter the horses mood and create a tranquilizing effect. I'm pretty sure no one (or at least not me) is faulting a trainer for giving a horse a little bute, banamine, or robaxin to keep a horse comfortable after a long week of showing.
    I've heard time and time again people referring to any substance a horse is given as "drugging" which I think gives the wrong impression to outsiders, can confuse horse owners, and disallows HONEST conversations about the positives and negatives surrounding different supplements/medications. My point being that a medication such as ulcer guard should not be discussed in the same way as something like ace. Drugging has been equated to doping and they are not the same, therefore I think we need to be more conscientious in how we choose to discuss this issue further.

    It's worth pointing out that OP began this thread by saying:
    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius View Post
    I had the disappointing experience of keeping my horse on the grounds one night and coming to care for him early in the morning. The conversations overheard about, "how much' and "when" were all around me and I just got disgusted. I kind of gave up at that point. When will our organization put some teeth into the drugging situation???
    So, I disagree with you on your definition of how "drugging" has been used in this thread as well as other threads on this forum.



  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midge View Post
    Funny how you cut her statement to make it sound like she said 'and'. She said exactly what you did, 'or'. Here, I'll bold for you:
    Of course you seem unable to read.
    If you will be kind enough to revisit post # 55 you will see that I posted exactly the same quote as you ( minus the bolding).
    She did NOT say 'little bute' OR banamine.

    Regardless, it's a vacation for meds or sedation but I'm sure you knew that ( or at least I hope so ).



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