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  1. #281
    Join Date
    Nov. 15, 2005
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    NY
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    6,777

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADM7040 View Post
    Sorry guys, you can keep saying over and over that someone needs to produce "the study" that "the scientists" did that caused the FDA to pull bute from the human market and that does not give you any leg to stand on. What you ARE showing is that you do not understand how the FDA operates. I explained it before, apparently some people understood but others want to remain dogmatic in their belief that the raras are behind it.

    No clinical "study" by "scientists" is behind the FDA pulling bute, instead there were after market reported adverse events in the treated population. I'll try again to make that simple to understand. After the initial controlled clinical trials are conducted on a proposed new drug, the company presents this information to the FDA for approval. If the FDA approves, the drug is then introduced to the general pubic for use. While the drug is being used, adverse events (side effects) are reported to the FDA. If the drug produces unexpected adverse events (things they did not expect from the initial clinical trials) then the drug is subject to be pulled from the market. That is what happened with bute in humans, it produced numerous, serious adverse events that resulted in the FDA pulling its approval from the human market.

    I suppose it is possible that the raras could be behind it. Back in the day (what was it, the 50's) they could have hatched their evil plan against horse slaughter and used their resources to buy off patients and their physicians to somehow fake all these adverse events.

    I keep reading posts from pro-slaughter people stating that rules and regulations currently exist and that good management and enforcement is all that is needed. Well, I agree, the rules and regulations DO exist to make this a legitimate way to slaughter and use "one last time" "some horses" that are part of the unwanted horse population. (I won't even address the enforcement for other rules and regs.) But the ban on bute and other substances are inconveniently part of the current rules and regs. Don't like it? Too bad, spend your efforts to have that changed. I read some others stating that human consumption is not all that is done with these horses. Fine, use them for what is appropriate once the rules and regs are followed. The currently reported less than 1% test rate is abysmal. Test them, all of them and keep the food chain clean.
    Ah, finally, some sense!

    And Danceronice, if the drug is fat soluble, iirc, those are the drugs that do stay and accumulates in fat tissues [brain, breasts, ovaries, testes,...] in the animal and then in the animal that consumes that animal. I gets stored and stays there in the one, then in the consumer.
    If you consume this meat item say once a week for life, and it has the drug in it... that is going to build up in ya'.

    Think Mercury in fish. Bigger fish are more dangerous to consume cause they eat lots and lots of smaller fish laden with mercury. The higher up ion the food chain you go the more dangerous it is to consume as the drug is more concentrated due to their diet.

    Say you have a concentration of something at 1% in water... move up the food chain 10 levels and it's not 10x worse... it's a million. It's an exponential equation.

    Tuna being an apex predator means that they have a much higher concentration than the fish they eat... thus eat it yourself in moderation.

    Furthermore, in my research into Bute I found some suggestions that one of the concerns is not that phenylbutazolidone is the 'issue' [though it is] for human consumption but that in horses it becomes a metabolite, iirc Oxybutazolidone, and that is WAY worse for humans.

    It would be nice if these things were simple and black and white. But when you're talking drugs and bodies, it rarely ever is.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  2. #282
    Join Date
    Nov. 15, 2005
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    6,777

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ADM7040 View Post
    Sorry guys, you can keep saying over and over that someone needs to produce "the study" that "the scientists" did that caused the FDA to pull bute from the human market and that does not give you any leg to stand on. What you ARE showing is that you do not understand how the FDA operates. I explained it before, apparently some people understood but others want to remain dogmatic in their belief that the raras are behind it.

    No clinical "study" by "scientists" is behind the FDA pulling bute, instead there were after market reported adverse events in the treated population. I'll try again to make that simple to understand. After the initial controlled clinical trials are conducted on a proposed new drug, the company presents this information to the FDA for approval. If the FDA approves, the drug is then introduced to the general pubic for use. While the drug is being used, adverse events (side effects) are reported to the FDA. If the drug produces unexpected adverse events (things they did not expect from the initial clinical trials) then the drug is subject to be pulled from the market. That is what happened with bute in humans, it produced numerous, serious adverse events that resulted in the FDA pulling its approval from the human market.

    I suppose it is possible that the raras could be behind it. Back in the day (what was it, the 50's) they could have hatched their evil plan against horse slaughter and used their resources to buy off patients and their physicians to somehow fake all these adverse events.

    I keep reading posts from pro-slaughter people stating that rules and regulations currently exist and that good management and enforcement is all that is needed. Well, I agree, the rules and regulations DO exist to make this a legitimate way to slaughter and use "one last time" "some horses" that are part of the unwanted horse population. (I won't even address the enforcement for other rules and regs.) But the ban on bute and other substances are inconveniently part of the current rules and regs. Don't like it? Too bad, spend your efforts to have that changed. I read some others stating that human consumption is not all that is done with these horses. Fine, use them for what is appropriate once the rules and regs are followed. The currently reported less than 1% test rate is abysmal. Test them, all of them and keep the food chain clean.
    Ah, finally, some sense!

    And Danceronice, if the drug is fat soluble, iirc, those are the drugs that do stay and accumulates in fat tissues [brain, breasts, ovaries, testes,...] in the animal and then in the animal that consumes that animal. It gets stored and stays there in the one, then in the consumer.
    If you consume this meat item say once a week for life, and it has the drug in it... that is going to build up in ya'.

    Think Mercury in fish. Bigger fish are more dangerous to consume cause they eat lots and lots of smaller fish laden with mercury. The higher up ion the food chain you go the more dangerous it is to consume as the drug is more concentrated due to their diet.

    Say you have a concentration of something at 1% in water... move up the food chain 10 levels and it's not 10x worse... it's a million. It's an exponential equation.

    Tuna being an apex predator means that they have a much higher concentration than the fish they eat... thus eat it yourself in moderation.

    Furthermore, in my research into Bute I found some suggestions that one of the concerns is not that phenylbutazolidone is the 'issue' [though it is] for human consumption but that in horses it becomes a metabolite, iirc Oxybutazolidone, and that is WAY worse for humans.
    What I also learned was that Bute was used in patients with RA, but then discontinued because of adverse events... it was not that they did any further studies on it in people.. they saw adverse events, and went to another drug that offered relief without the AEs. That kind of info offers us 0 information on it's safety at low level, or any levels.... and the motivation to do those human studies is just not there, if you could get subjects to sign up which I doubt you could. It's not like testing a drug that has some medicinal benefit... this is just to determine how much is toxic... yeah, who signs up for that one?

    It would be nice if these things were simple and black and white. But when you're talking drugs and bodies, it rarely ever is.



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