The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 23
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct. 19, 2008
    Posts
    333

    Default Need opinions from upper level dressage riders/trainers.. no offense to the lower g

    I have a 3rd and 4th level dressage horse being ridden in a double bridle. The scores are down and I noticed the bits are too big.. My horse rides in a 5 1/2 but the bits being used in the double are 6".. What kind of impact would this be in training, riding, flexion etc?? I have my thoughts but would love to hear from others thanks



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar. 8, 2009
    Location
    Montreal, Qc
    Posts
    3,151

    Default

    When the bits are too big, they floats and the pressure points won't be at the right places. Like too big shoes, the arch won't be at the right place, your toes will float and no matter how much you tighten them, you'll have problem walking with them and finding your balance.

    Same if the bits are too small.

    Depending on the type of weymouth you have, it would be less noticeable if it is a bit too big, but a too big bradoon would not be really good. The horse will be less willing to stay on the contact. The action of the bit won't be as precise as it's design for.

    If it is for a few rides, it won't be traumatic for your horse but on the long run,
    your horse would feel better in a 5 1/2 bradoon and a 5 1/2 or 5 1/4 for the weymouth.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan. 26, 2010
    Posts
    6,385

    Default

    Why is your horse being ridden normally in bits different than at a show? I find the biggest mistake in showing is to switch something up last minute.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2004
    Posts
    7,540

    Default

    normally the bridoon is longer than the curb.... so there will be differences in the widths from just riding in a snaffle. what is important is how does it fit?

    i dont really think .25" would make much of a difference one way or another.... ?



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar. 8, 2009
    Location
    Montreal, Qc
    Posts
    3,151

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    normally the bridoon is longer than the curb.... so there will be differences in the widths from just riding in a snaffle. what is important is how does it fit?

    i dont really think .25" would make much of a difference one way or another.... ?
    It is not .25" it is .50".

    What matter is how it fits? If it's too big or too small, how can the fit be good?

    There is a reason why bits are made of different lenghts.
    .25 too small will pinch the corner of your horse's mouth
    .25 too big, the bit will have space to move from side to side and if the bit has a curve, it won't conform the horse's mouth like it is supposed to be.

    We cannot stress over more for a good fitting saddle and there would be no problem putting ill fitted bits in our horse's mouth? Their most sensitive part!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun. 7, 2006
    Posts
    9,037

    Default

    Sometimes the top shanks of the Weymouth curve in, meaning you have to go wider than usual to prevent rubbing. My horse takes a 5" bit in his snaffle bridle but for the Weymouth dressage trainer said we had to go up 1/4".

    Then often the bridoon needs to be a 1/4" bigger than the Weymouth, so the rings have room to move around.

    Either way the double is not required at third and fourth so if he goes better in the snaffle just do him in that.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct. 20, 2007
    Location
    Wonderland
    Posts
    2,593

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alibi_18 View Post
    It is not .25" it is .50".
    A bit that is 1/2 inch longer is 1/4 inch longer on each side.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar. 8, 2009
    Location
    Montreal, Qc
    Posts
    3,151

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alicen View Post
    A bit that is 1/2 inch longer is 1/4 inch longer on each side.
    1/4 inch too big on each side yeah I know.

    The horse snaffle is a 5 1/2. But the bradoon is a 6".

    If the snaffle fits correctly, there is a bit of room already on the side like it should be. Then you had the 1/4" extra on each side.

    I don't care, not my horse. But I wouldn't put a too big bit in my horse's mouth, because I believe it should fit properly, like everything else.

    People could put the bit too low or too high for a 1/4". What would it change?

    @Meupatdoes: I've always seen weymouths with the top shank that are straight or curved out but if your horse needs a tad bigger to fit, by all mean so be it!
    And you see, your trainer said your bit was too tigh for 1/4". Meaning 1/8" on each side! According to Mbm and Alicen, it shouldn't have been a problem. Was your trainer wrong? If you go buy a bit that is 1/2" bigger than what you had, would your trainer be happy?



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar. 4, 2004
    Location
    Oxford, PA
    Posts
    1,454

    Default

    Your curb bit should be the width of your horse's mouth. The bradoon should be slightly longer. A good curb bit will have the top "shank, for lack of a better word" curved outward so the bit doesn't press on the sides of the face. Some horses have a lower palate or a larger tongue or both, so height/width of port (or lack of) needs to be considered. Sometime a smaller diameter bit is needed if the horse's mouth is small or shallow. Height of the bits in the mouth also need to be taken into condsideration too. Adjustment of the noseband is important to assure that there is no pinching between it and the bits. There are many factors to correctly fitting bits. I would suggest that you find a good FEI trainer in your area and take your horse there for a lesson and suggestions. I say a good FEI trainer because not every trainer is as knowledgeable about bits as they should be. Good Luck!
    "You post all your drama on Facebook and get mad when people judge you? You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you?"



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun. 7, 2006
    Posts
    9,037

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alibi_18 View Post
    @Meupatdoes: I've always seen weymouths with the top shank that are straight or curved out but if your horse needs a tad bigger to fit, by all mean so be it!
    And you see, your trainer said your bit was too tigh for 1/4". Meaning 1/8" on each side! According to Mbm and Alicen, it shouldn't have been a problem. Was your trainer wrong? If you go buy a bit that is 1/2" bigger than what you had, would your trainer be happy?
    I don't think my trainer wants to get dragged into your pissing contest with mbm. Please don't try to use my trainer as your internet trump card. What does your FEI trainer say?

    I was just relating a story that might explain why OP's horse goes in larger bits in the double. Whether it applies to other horses than just mine I don't have enough personal experience to say.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun. 13, 2001
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    6,135

    Default

    The bradoon (snaffle) should always be wider than the curb (bit/weymouth). Usually by 1/4" but if the lips are very fleshy (pouting ones) the curb might be slightly wider. And the shape/size of the bradoon vs a normal larger ring snaffle plays into the mix as does the weymouth, and its shanks (both on the top and the bottom), as does its port (or not).

    What happens if it is too wide? It can easily slide more to one side, depending upon how it is used/how stable it is. The bits have specific purposes in balance and bearing, too often we see both bits being used to close the horse's throatlatch/lower the neck/compress the horse/as bits of longitudinal flexion rather than refinements in what is allowed in carriage. Perhaps that is more the problem?

    Is that a reason scores go down? The (owner's?) question is why the full bridle is being used, and how. If the bridle is being used (by another rider I take it) strictly to enforce longitudinal flexion (rather than a bit of nuance/specificity) and to enforce collection, that would be problematic. So, it is a performance question. Also, the scores generally are not quite as high (as a group) as horses go up the levels.

    Imho there are two different questions being asked.
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  12. #12
    Join Date
    May. 20, 2005
    Location
    Desert Southwest
    Posts
    6,308

    Default

    I thought I'd replied to this thread, but don't see my post. Oh well. Anyway, I agree with Maude's answer. Curb to fit the width of mouth, bradoon might be as much as 1/2 to 3/4 inches wider, depending on the horse's mouth conformation.

    For instance, my gelding's muzzle is quite narrow, but his cheeks and the corners of his lips demand a quite wide bradoon. And yes, I did consult an FEI judge/trainer/rider about the fit!

    IMO, finding the right combination of bits for a double is right up there with saddle-fitting. Deciding on the right widths of bits is one thing -- then there's the dizzying array of mouthpieces and shank options.

    AAAAAGH!



  13. #13
    Join Date
    May. 20, 2005
    Location
    Desert Southwest
    Posts
    6,308

    Default

    Want to add the question: why not just show the horse in a plain snaffle? Were the horse's scores higher in a snaffle than they are in the double?

    I rode our first year at Third in a snaffle. Got my scores for the Bronze that way. I might switch back and forth between the snaffle and double this year to see what works best. Doubles are optional, after all.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 2006
    Posts
    232

    Default

    Just my two cents, but when I fit the last three doubles I opted to keep the bradoon the same size as the snaffle and subtract 1/4" from the curb. So, my little guy rides in a 5 1/4" snaffle so in the double he's in a 5 1/4" bradoon and a 5" curb. Two of the three had previously been ridden by the "add 1/4" method" in their doubles and went better when I did it the other way.

    OP, did this horse show at the 3rd/4th level previously in a snaffle and now that the double has been added the scores are down?



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug. 14, 2004
    Posts
    7,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alibi_18 View Post
    What matter is how it fits? If it's too big or too small, how can the fit be good?
    it was question - ie the actual measurement doesn't matter - the important part is - how does it fit the actual horse in question? that is what matters.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug. 15, 2010
    Posts
    1,786

    Default

    Width is important in fit, but also look at length of shanks, port shape and size - all of these make a difference in the horse's response and comfort in the curb. As already noted, too wide, and the bit shuttles back and forth in the horse's mouth. Depending on the port, there may be discomfort in the horse's palate as well - if a higher port is used AND it is sliding back and forth, the widest point of the palate is the center - as it slides from side to side, it is more likely to cause contact w/ the horse's palate. If the horse has a thick/fleshy tongue, you may have too much contact side to side on the tongue. There are so many variables in curb bits and horses' mouths.

    My FEI horse preferred a thinner curb w a low port - but some horses prefer a high port, some prefer a thicker curb. Length and shape of shanks (top and bottom!) also vary the effect of the curb.

    There is just not enough info here to really answer your question. Although I agree with Beenthere - why change bits for showing? I far prefer to show in the same bits I ride in every day!



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar. 8, 2009
    Location
    Montreal, Qc
    Posts
    3,151

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    I don't think my trainer wants to get dragged into your pissing contest with mbm. Please don't try to use my trainer as your internet trump card. What does your FEI trainer say?

    I was just relating a story that might explain why OP's horse goes in larger bits in the double. Whether it applies to other horses than just mine I don't have enough personal experience to say.
    ??? Not a pissing contest at all...
    I was actually saying that your trainer did the right thing by having you get a bit that was fitting properly instead of using the one that was 1/4'' too small...no need to be upset.

    My trainer say my bits fit fine thank you. My snaffle/bradoon are the same 5 1/2and my weymouth is a 1/4'' smaller, since it is lower in my horse's mouth and she is more rafine there. Maybe your horse is larger there. I don't know. But your trainer picked/or you did, the right bits that fits your horse. Point.

    The OP states that her horse's bits are too big.
    and I noticed the bits are too big..
    and is asking what is the impact of riding with bits that are too big.

    She is not asking if her bits are fitting good. They are not, according to OP.
    I don't care about the sizes mentionned. I just care about the importance of riding with bits that fits.

    On the other hand, if the horse is going well in a 5 1/2 snaffle, I don't see how a 6'' bradoon and a 6'' weymouth would fit properly. Maybe, maybe one of the two. But both? I think that the trainer is using what s/he has already.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr. 17, 2002
    Location
    between the barn and the pond
    Posts
    14,495

    Default

    OP, how are you checking the credentials on your respondents? Self-policing is, at best, bad.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar. 28, 2006
    Posts
    1,911

    Default

    OP, how are you checking the credentials on your respondents? Self-policing is, at best, bad
    "When you think you don't need a coach ...then you're in trouble" Don Imus 2012


    1 members found this post helpful.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct. 19, 2008
    Posts
    333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DukesMom View Post
    Just my two cents, but when I fit the last three doubles I opted to keep the bradoon the same size as the snaffle and subtract 1/4" from the curb. So, my little guy rides in a 5 1/4" snaffle so in the double he's in a 5 1/4" bradoon and a 5" curb. Two of the three had previously been ridden by the "add 1/4" method" in their doubles and went better when I did it the other way.

    OP, did this horse show at the 3rd/4th level previously in a snaffle and now that the double has been added the scores are down?
    Horse has been in a double for a couple of years .. different trainer and different bit size being used. scores were down with comments from judges that horse shows signs of being tense and stiff, poll and jaw stiff..



Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 7
    Last Post: Oct. 5, 2012, 09:50 PM
  2. Replies: 20
    Last Post: Feb. 2, 2012, 11:18 AM
  3. Replies: 64
    Last Post: Jul. 22, 2011, 02:04 PM
  4. Any Upper Level Riders Seeking Help?
    By atleventer in forum Eventing
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: Aug. 24, 2010, 01:10 AM
  5. Question for upper level riders
    By caevent in forum Eventing
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: Jun. 20, 2010, 07:04 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
randomness