[J-Lu]

Hi mvp,

Thanks for asking. Personally, I see some of the Natural Horsemanship (TM) ending up as a shortcut to the author's/manufacturer's pockets. Not always (see below). I think the marketing suggests to some amateur riders that if only they read the books and buy the products, their problems will be solved. But not so, because Natural Horsemanship (TM) isn't the same as Natural Horsemanship, and many people buying the products really can't use them effectively.

I was just delivered a coming 4 year old who is quite sensitive and has been trained using Clinton Anderson methods daily from late yearling to now. For this *particular* horse, the methods didn't stop this horse from wigging about alot of things in his new environment and me having to establish authority repeatedly. However, I think he'd be quite difficult without all of that groundwork, and when his brain kicks in he relies on this background of work to find a comfort zone. He's not a bad horse, he's not mean, he's not untrained, he's hypersensitive and he's young. He *is* the well-trained Natural Horsemanship (TM) horse who is simply a hypersensitive guy with his own brain, although this training was executed by a woman who understands Horsemanship. When he was started under saddle by a professional dressage rider, it was like he had forgotten alot of that ground work because he was so involved with his surroundings...but it was a foundation for him to eventually fall back on. This dressage trainer, who also breeds and starts young horses and has trained to GP, is a phenomenal horsewoman. She's about 5"4' and is absolutely head mare and head bitch to her mastiff/Pyraneese breeding operation. It's why she's so successful training multiple breeds, multiple personalities, etc. She speaks horse, she speaks dog. Like I said, this horse would have been difficult without that solid foundation of work.

That said, any good dressage person who starts young horses would have recognized the same thing in this horse - he needs a herd leader, he needs to be *shown* that things are alright, he needs discipline, he needs the routine of work, and desensitizing to everything and anything, etc. I'm pretty sure he'll grow out of it but right now I'm focused on giving him a positive and secure foundation. I'm grateful for the Clinton Anderson background - I think this horse would have been difficult to handle without it.

Since a couple other posters have also described "Natural Horsemanship" (TM) as a short-cut of some type, I have to ask: A short cut To Where? I don't see most of these people getting their students mounted up. Yes, the Parellis or Clinton Anderson or another new-fangled NH person will write about riding (or training under saddle). But I don't think I have ever spoken to someone who said they were studying one of these guy's courses and talked about the riding part.

Have you guys met ammies who have drunk the kool-aid and actually ridden it? Or do these folks stop with elaborate in-hand work?

[Eclectic Horseman]

This is the way most dressage riders think, ESP at the higher levels and that's great for you and them. For me I want my horse sane and able to handle almost anything. I am a low level rider because in shopping for a new horse I tried out the 20k horses and decided that I didn't want to deal with the baggage of them or the craziness of them so I ended up with the paint horse that was broke by a cowboy and was only broke for 6 months when I got him but rides like he has been broke for 20 years. This is what I wanted but it did show me a massive lack of ground manners as well as under saddle manners in dressage horses in a 10k to 25k price range. So now me and my little paint will have fun at the lower levels and trail ride and maybe make it to 4th if im lucky but more like 3rd probably but i will have fun with him and he is sensitive to my aides, more than any horse I've owned yet he is also desensitized to lots of things so I don't have to worry about many shenanigans with him.

Yup. It's called temperament. It is not about the "cowboy." Good for you for you to buy a suitable horse. Not too many people understand their limits--and, of course, those with little or no knowledge have no idea that there ARE limits. They think that they can go to the Olympics if they just throw enough money at it.

NH people all seem to work with the same type of horse. They usually do not want to deal with really high strung TBs or WBs. Hell, I remember that Monty Roberts wouldn't even work with mares in his demonstrations.

I think that we are not breeding enough amateur friendly horses, but I disagree that it is difficult to find a colt starter. Most dressage trainers use their working students or assistants as crash test dummies. They do the starting and ground work in-house. Those horses are totally under their control. The problem with working with other people's young stock is that there is no consistency and they quickly unlearn what they have learned and they quickly become spoiled by their amateur horsemen owners. When I have started horses for people--it was pretty much hands off by the owner for a good long time. I was not going to let them do something that would end up getting me hurt.

Let me say this very clearly again--most amateur owners have absolutely no business buying the young, sound, high energy, hot temperamented horses that they buy. I have seen some that couldn't even deal with a young very quiet 6 year old horse on their own because they just do not have enough horse sense.

As an example, I took a client horse shopping to look at a 6 year old small Morgan/Perch cross. Should have been perfect. Woman had been riding about 15 years and had owned her own dead broke aged paint horse for 6-7 years (she ultimately sold it because it was too much for her.) When she tried out this draft cross, a loose horse streaked across the arena, and I said, "Perfect!" when the mare didn't even look at it. Then she hacked the mare down the road a bit, and a car came up and stopped to ask directions. The horse started backing up and backing up and went off the side of the road into a culvert. This woman had NO IDEA that she was pulling back on the reins and putting her leg on the horse. The more the horse backed up the more she clenched up. So obviously the horse was unsuitable. The client found a 16 year old been there done that WB schoolmaster dressage mare who knew enough to blow off stupid unintentional aids.

My point is? Most people don't need cowboys. They need SUITABLE horses and 10,000 hours of instruction and handling horses.

[7HL]

Sign of the times... people just want to ride and enjoy their horse. Cowboys, and Western have been here for some time. They will continue to influence horse owners and trainers. Most horse owners really don't care what the "dressage forum" on COTH thinks.

[alicen]

Hell, I remember that Monty Roberts wouldn't even work with mares in his demonstrations.

Are you serious?

[ThreeFigs]

Serious. Mares might go into heat during a demonstration and screw everything up. Damn hormones!

We've got several good cowboy types here who start or fix horses from any background. I've started a couple of my own, but the older I get, the less I mess with young or unbroke horses. I'm grateful for the people that start colts!

EH, I believe there are more inappropriate riders than inappropriate horses! Your example is priceless.

[Eclectic Horseman]

Are you serious?

Yes. This was back in the 80s when he was giving demonstrations of how to back a horse in 20 mins. He did a demonstration here locally and used local people's horses. He had very specific criteria and checked them all out before he used them to make sure that they wouldn't embarrass him. Whole thing was a sham.

[quietann]

I agree to a certain point. I have heard that the horses that race in the KY Derby get hit with a level of noise they have never encountered before. They've heard crowds and equipment, but at the derby, when they come out of the tunnel the "roar" of the crowd is deafening. No amount of training can prepare a horse of that caliber (sensitivity) to that.

I think this is what happened with David Marcus and Capital at the Olympics. Even the very very top riders were saying that the venue was extra spooky. And Capital is still fairly young, and he and DM were new to each other. Absolutely heartbreaking situation, but hopefully they'll be more experiences and ready to give it another go in Rio!

[IdahoRider]

Sign of the times... people just want to ride and enjoy their horse. Cowboys, and Western have been here for some time. They will continue to influence horse owners and trainers. Most horse owners really don't care what the "dressage forum" on COTH thinks.

And, yet, here you all are...in the dressage forum. If someone puts some letters up in an arena, tacks up in a western saddle and then proceeds to ride a cowboy/western dressage test, are they exerting their western influence on dressage? Or is dressage exerting their influence on western riding?
Sheilah

[ThreeFigs]

^ this. Evidently the dressage forum is a burr under 7's saddle. He could avoid that irritation by refusing to grace us with his presence.

[7HL]

And, yet, here you all are...in the dressage forum. If someone puts some letters up in an arena, tacks up in a western saddle and then proceeds to ride a cowboy/western dressage test, are they exerting their western influence on dressage? Or is dressage exerting their influence on western riding?
Sheilah

^ this. Evidently the dressage forum is a burr under 7's saddle. He could avoid that irritation by refusing to grace us with his presence.

Not a burr ... it is a blurr... since it will become Western Natural Dressage soon. Maybe COTH will start a western dressage and a natural horse forum. There's a Western Forum going strong.

[IdahoRider]

There's a Western Forum going strong.

I am honestly not poking fun at you! However...I had to snort a little when I read the line I quoted above! Sure, the western forum is going so strong that you have to come to the dressage forum to get a decent thread going.
Sheilah

[Bristol Bay]

It seems like this thread was started out of spite, and that's exactly where it has ended up.

[quietann]

Idk about Morgan wd but i love my Morgan even though he is retired. Looking at some videos of wd Morgan I surely would not kick this guy out of my barn. Some retraining here and there I think he'd make a nice one

http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_...?v=rh7Twe2MnVY

Oh yeah. Take off the show shoes (he's obviously got long toes and pads in front), get rid of the bustle**, and let this boy move, and I am sure he'd be a lovely dressage horse. Pretty clear he has the "sit!" Though retraining breed show Morgans for traditional dressage can be pretty tough as the cues are completely different... and a lot of Morgans have a lot of "go" and are hence ridden in "more bit."

**The tail early on is still "done up" to protect it... The Morgan breed show world is all over looooong tails. In some of the competition parts you can see the tail down, and it's pretty long. To me it looks like the horse has been wearing a "bustle", which basically "trains" the tail into that weird constant arch. he may also have some extra hair braided in, which isn't really show ring legal but happens a lot anyway...

[Moderator 1]

As this thread had gotten into some personal commentary and is only tangentially related to dressage, we're closing it. We've removed some posts.

Mod 1