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  1. #1
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    Question Question about Prelim test A

    In Prelim Test A, movement 6 is

    (already in woirking trot)
    KXM Change rein, giving and taking the reins forward over X for 5 meters.
    The directives are
    Straightness on the diagonal, the reach forward of the neck while maintaining balance, smoothenss of giving and taking.
    Can someone tell me what they are actually looking for?

    Is it "5 meters of stretchy trot"?
    Is it "5 meters of demonstrating self carriage"?
    Or something else?

    Is the neck ONLY supposed to stretch "out"? or "out AND down"?

    What does "giving and taking the reins forward" mean?
    Does in mean "giving the reins forward" and then, 5 meters later "taking them back"?
    Or are you supposed to give and take multiple times in the 5 meters?

    Thanks
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  2. #2
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    I'd be curious as well...but I thought they wanted no change in the balanance but not a stretchy trot. Basically the rider just puts their hand forward for a step or two and shows that the horse doesn't fall flat on their face or change their trot but if they are on the aids, their neck will reach forward a bit but not dive down. So I consider it 5 meters of demonstrating self carriage.

    Riders I see (who should know and score well) just put their hands forward for one or two steps and then bring them back...that's all.


    I could be TOTALLY wrong though.
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  3. #3
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    Your guess would be as good as mine.

    The dressage trainer I work with worked with me on this a little last year, as I found it totally befuddling. What SHE interprets it as how obedient your horse is as following the contact (paraphrasing/guessing). She would have me give the reins (push my hands forward) and take them back and she wanted Toby to stay soft and relaxed and accept the change without fuss. When we worked on it, I would go around giving and taking here and there. Very little change was seen when it was right...

    I hate the move (I hate that test, really), as I really feel like no one really knows how to ride or judge it. I sat in the session with Sally O'Connor when that test came out at the convention, and I still am not clear as to what she was saying needed to be shown.



  4. #4
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    The way it reads I'd say they're looking for the horse to actively seek to keep the contact as the reins are given and then re-gathered over the space of several strides. A distinction from the briefer (IIRC?) "give and take" that I've seen in other tests where it's just a stride or two to see if the horse falls to pieces if the contact is given away.

    But that is a guess. Last time I even looked at a Preliminary dressage test was 2005.

    I would love to see some of the comments actual judges make on these scores, or to hear what dressage judges are being told to look for and score.

    Seems to me a horse that politely and without fuss accepts the change in contact both ways would at least be "satisfactory".
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  5. #5
    Janet is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    Well, I am glad I am not the only one.

    Maybe I will emai a couple of judges I know.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  6. #6
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    I took a lesson with a dressage judge (not eventing) who interpreted it as 5 meters of self carriage. I scribed for a judge whose comment to about 75% of riders on this movement was "hands too high" which confused me more . . .



  7. #7
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    As it happens, the issue is addressed in the latest issue of Eventung magazine, page 10! Just came in the mail!
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  8. #8
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    I agree that this is confusingly written, and has caused some consternation in my life as well. I thought probably give your hands forward- horse should, without losing balance/tempo, politely stretch neck out (not down) and seek hand, and then you should smoothly be able to return to contact, again without resistance or losing balance/tempo.

    But I am no dressage judge. I'll look forward to reading the article in Eventing magazine!



  9. #9
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    Funny you should ask about this! My British trainer was just talking about how she had to do this "back in the day" when competing in Europe. It sounds to me it's like what you often see in tests in Europe and New Zealand where the riders "shake" (i.e. give and take fairly quickly) the reins to demonstrate self-carriage.

    Here's an example video (it's around minute 1:00):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28EysvK6hcI



  10. #10
    Janet is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    If I am seeing it correctly, she moves her hands forward AND UP, so she doesn't actually change the contact, just makes it a broken line rather than a straight line.

    I wonder if that is what is meant in the post below
    I scribed for a judge whose comment to about 75% of riders on this movement was "hands too high" which confused me more . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by PrinceSheik325 View Post
    Funny you should ask about this! My British trainer was just talking about how she had to do this "back in the day" when competing in Europe. It sounds to me it's like what you often see in tests in Europe and New Zealand where the riders "shake" (i.e. give and take fairly quickly) the reins to demonstrate self-carriage.

    Here's an example video (it's around minute 1:00):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28EysvK6hcI
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  11. #11
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    Well the FEI test is drafted a bit different but I suspect it should be ridden the same way

    CCI 1*

    [SIZE=1]Change the rein in working trot, giving and retaking the reins over X for 1 horse length [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=1]The regularity, the rhythm, the balance while drawing forward to the contact. [/SIZE]


    What I gathered was those that put their hand UP...were cheating it a bit because they were still holding the horse together with the reins....but you have to move your hands up enough so that it shows you are really giving them forward (without tipping your own position forward which is what I always end up doing....sure, lets all go foward together )
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  12. #12
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    I have been taught that giving your hands forward is testing the horses self-carriage, but reaching forward and down is allowing and signalling stretch. If you find a training video from Reiner Klimke, he teaches that.



  13. #13
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    I always ride it the way I do the stretchy circle (my horse's default is long and low with his nose poked out-- he thinks he's a QH hunter.) The comments vary from "not str8" (a 6) to "not thru" (a 5) to 6 with no comment. This is not a fancy moving or dressagily inclined TB, who gets mostly 6s so probably no surprise there.



  14. #14
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    At the Area II convention this past winter Susan Graham White was asked the same question. If I'm remembering correctly she said it was basically a test to make sure the rider isn't holding the horse together with the hand. She wanted her riders to give for 4 or 5 strides. The horse either needed to keep self carriage to to gently seek the bit while keeping the same balance and energy. Essentially they don't want the heads to pop up or to dive down when the rider gives the reins.
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  15. #15
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    I hate that part of the test. My guy thinks it is time to slow down or do the stretchy circle.
    I am on my phone 90% of the time. Please ignore typos, misplaced lower case letters, and the random word butchered by autocowreck.




  16. #16
    Janet is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    Eventing magazine was waiting for me when I got home.

    paraphrasing

    At Training we ask for a strethy circle. stretching forward and down.

    At Prelim the horse is reliably on the bit. If the rider elongates the arm by giving forward, or lets the rein slide, the horse should reach out and slghtly down. Ideally the head should not go below the point of the shoulder.


    But then it gets really confusing.

    The FEi test calls for lengthening for one horse length. We thought this was vague so we said 5 meters "which is about the same thing".

    I want to know where she is finding horses that are 5 m long. Just about every horse I know fits in a 12x12 stall, which is a bit less than 4 m.

    Then Tootsie says that Susan said "4 or 5 strides". A trot stride is about 9 feet, which is just under 3 m. So "4 or 5 strides" is about 12 - 15 m.

    So now I am confused about how long I am supposed to do it.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  17. #17
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    I was reading the rule book in prep for the up-coming Judges forum in Las Vegas. In DR110.3 The exercises there is a description of both [a] Stretching the Frame in which the horse reaches forward and down and [b] Uberstreichen in which there is “a clear release of the contact where the horse maintains self carriage, rhythm, tempo, straightness, and quality of gait.” [Wouldn’t it be nice if the people who wrote the rule book and the people who wrote the tests used the same word{s} to describe the same thing?]

    When I looked at the video I was watching the horse - expecting to see a release of contact and [hopefully] the horse following the release while maintaining self carriage. I missed it the first time because the horse’s didn’t change as there really wasn’t a release of contact – just a forward and upward movement of the rider’s hands.

    What you can also see if you watch from 40 sec until after the “release” at X is that horse is not is self carriage. His strides are short behind and he is on his forehand. As he goes around the circle, he is not bending, but leaning – watch the inside hind to see that it does not move forward into the footprint of the front leg but that it moves crosses under his body toward the outside. I mention this because so many of the horses I judge lack bending.
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  18. #18
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    I interpreted "one horse length" to mean "the amount of ground the horse covers in one stride". Is that really only nine feet? One pair of legs or both pairs?

    Yes, still confused. Good thing this is not relevant to my current level.
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  19. #19
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  20. #20
    Janet is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    We typically set trot poles at 4 1/2 feet. So I deduced that one full trot stride (RF to RF) = 2 trot poles = 9 feet.

    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    I interpreted "one horse length" to mean "the amount of ground the horse covers in one stride". Is that really only nine feet? One pair of legs or both pairs?

    Yes, still confused. Good thing this is not relevant to my current level.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



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