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  1. #141
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    see u at x--There are a number of people who are students of Buck's who do clinics in their own areas. Is that a possibility for you? Otherwise, I'd suggest you get the Groundwork book as a start, I think it's cheaper than the videos. Another good book is Bill Dorrance & Leslie Desmond's "True Horsemanship Through Feel". I know videos might be easier to learn from, but the books are a bit less expensive.
    "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

    Spay and neuter. Please.


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  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by monstrpony View Post
    see u at x--There are a number of people who are students of Buck's who do clinics in their own areas. Is that a possibility for you? Otherwise, I'd suggest you get the Groundwork book as a start, I think it's cheaper than the videos. Another good book is Bill Dorrance & Leslie Desmond's "True Horsemanship Through Feel". I know videos might be easier to learn from, but the books are a bit less expensive.
    I'm certainly willing to check into other clinics, which is something I hadn't even thought of. The books are excellent ideas, too...my brain didn't even go there, probably because, as you suggested, the videos can sometimes be easier. Thank you very much for the suggestions! I love this horse and am excited to try something new that will benefit both of us.
    "It is not necessary for you to let everyone know everything about you. In fact, it is probably wise that you don't. There are some things that you need only discuss with God."



  3. #143
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    I haven't a prayer of attending a Buck clinic anytime soon, but I'd love to learn more about his methods and try incorporating them into work with my horse.
    First, go to a Buck clinic and audit. You are likely to find someone (or some people, plural) in your area who can help you learn how to work a horse on a feel.

    Second, there are a lot of people who are out there, who 'get it' and are truly after what Buck, Ray and Tom were after. They aren't well promoted, slick, etc. Not in order of anything in particular, here are a few to look up:

    Harry Whitney (Look up Tom Moates in particular, Tom writes about Harry and his teachings in a really enjoyable way that is easy to read)
    Ricky Quinn
    Tom Curtin
    Bryan Neubert (or his kids, in their 20s now)
    Lee Smith
    Buster McLaury
    Charley Snell
    Martin Black
    Josh Nichol
    Joe Wolter

    I know I'm missing some, but it's a start for sure. Buck has a charisma that sort of puts him in a different category (like the documentary Buck, people who have no real horsey interest enjoy watching/listening at a clinic).

    It can be hard, at first, to determine which of the traveling clinicians really are helping 'spread the word' of Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt. Many of them have spent time with Ray and Tom, but they aren't really (how do I put this) genuinely carrying out what Tom and Ray intended with the horses. Their intentions may be right, but their horsemanship and leadership fall short. You may notice a small explosion or full train wreck on COTH when you ask about some of these fellows...
    If Carolyn Hunt has asked someone to be a presenter at the Hunt/Dorrance memorial (Legacy of Legends), you can be pretty sure that they are not a 'train wreck' trainer.
    Otherwise, I think Tom Moates explains 'the difference' really well here, but you will have to do your own reading between the lines:
    http://www.harrywhitney.com/sg_userf...nstruction.pdf


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  4. #144
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    ^ Very important!
    "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

    Spay and neuter. Please.



  5. #145
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    Dec. 30, 2006
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    Yes! Yes! Yes! To Harry Whitney and the cliffsnotes by Tom Moates!
    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor



  6. #146
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    Jon Ensign is another "under the radar" clinician that is cut from the same cloth as the "good guys" and studied with them too. He's a good teacher, excellent horseman, and has a great sense of humor and fun.

    jonensign.com


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  7. #147
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    You guys rock. Thank you! Fillabeana, I'll definitely look into those other folks, too. It's so good to know that I have options! Most of the time I ride my horse pretty well, but my trainer is starting to think that he and I might not be a good match, but I'm having a tough time with that and just feel as though SOMETHING is missing...mostly my confidence. I need to get to the root of the problem and figure out how we can work through these roadblocks because this is probably one of the nicest horses I'll ever have.

    You make an excellent point, too, about making sure to find someone who follows the same philosophy. I've come across so many trainers who are shams or who just have something "off," that it makes me very nervous at times to think about going to someone new for help.

    You guys have been great. I can't wait to really dig into this stuff and see what I can learn. Thank you!
    "It is not necessary for you to let everyone know everything about you. In fact, it is probably wise that you don't. There are some things that you need only discuss with God."



  8. #148
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    Feb. 20, 2012
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    see u at x,

    You can also rent a lot of the titles you might be interested in. I think Giddyupflix has some great DVD's to rent. It's kind of like Netflix for horse people.

    There are probably some other companies that rent the type of DVD's you're looking for too. If you run an internet search you'll probably come up with several.

    Good luck!


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  9. #149
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    I learn better from DVDs, personally, so reading about it wouldn't do me a lick of good (I have tried to start "True Horsemanship through Feel" so many times!). I'd try to rent the DVDs if you can because you can see what other people are doing that is right/wrong, and you can see the cause/effect of what Buck does and what he looks for before releasing. I got a lot out of the DVDs I've watched thus far, which is 1-5, and I'm sure you could find lots to focus on from just the first and/or second DVDs.

    I've found that doing this type of extensive groundwork before I get on really gets my horse and I on the same page. I've improved my skills (although still have a long way to go!) and my horse seems to trust me more.
    My Mustang Adventures - my blog!
    Yoga for Equestrians
    "A horse's face always conveys clearly whether it is loved by its owner or simply used." - Anja Beran


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  10. #150
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    On the English front, there are Melanie Smith Taylor (Showjumping background, Eastern side of the Mississippi in Memphis, TN) and Terry Church (dressage background, Western side of the US near the San Francisco Bay Area in Petaluma, CA.



    Most of the time I ride my horse pretty well, but my trainer is starting to think that he and I might not be a good match, but I'm having a tough time with that and just feel as though SOMETHING is missing..
    Thank you, see u at x, for your kind words to me.

    I have found that there are a lot of very talented horsemen out there, who can (and do) achieve quite a lot...as long as they have the right kind of horse, with the right 'mind' and 'talent' and that hasn't been screwed up or spoiled previously. Their success, really, depends on having a horse that they can deal with. If they have a horse that they can't figure out, they know how to go find a horse that is more the type they know how to deal with.
    I suspect, x, that your trainer either 1)doesn't know how to take a horse like yours, and get a great relationship going or 2) does know how if riding himself, but doesn't know how to teach YOU how to get that relationship going with THAT horse...so he either needs a new horse, or a different person on that horse, to get, say, a successful ribbon/medal earning dressage duo going.

    In Buck's Faraway Horses book, he talks about how his brother in law Roland was having trouble with his horse, and was going to sell him so he didn't get bucked off and really seriously hurt. (Keep in mind Roland was a very good hand at the time.) When Roland asked Buck if he should sell his horse (who had just bucked him off in a bad way at a branding), Buck asked him if perhaps there is something that he missed with that horse, and if he missed it that he would miss it again with another horse and have to sell another horse.

    I really think that some horse/rider teams are a mismatch and it can be a VERY good idea to change horses. Being in over your head can be really dangerous, and you can only do the best you know how. And if you can't get help that will get things right, you should probably get a different horse.

    Buck's brother in law got help from Buck, and Buck says that he is now "a true student of the horse" and that "Some of the people who were once his equals couldn't saddle his horse now."

    So, x, what I am trying to say here, is that I am hoping you follow that niggling feeling about how something is missing. It won't be a comfortable, happy fuzzy majikal unicorn kind of journey, but it will be worth it to your horse, and your other relationships as well.

    Pocketpony, I get what you're saying about the Bill Dorrance book. When I first read Tom Dorrance's True Unity, it was...well...(cue crickets track)...huh? But now I get a LOT more. Yes, the dvds will help. I would also go read Tom Moates' books, they are a lot easier to read, and then you will be picking up some things that will make more sense in True Horsemanship Through Feel.
    I have also developed a HUGE understanding of what I am trying to get from my horse on a physical and mental basis (still working on it, too!) from Dr. Deb Bennett's website and forum. Do keep in mind, her forum is NOT a bulletin board for everyone's opinion and social interaction, it is an online classroom for people who want to learn from her:
    http://www.equinestudies.org/
    Reading Dr. Deb's stuff has given me a much bigger understanding of what is going on in a Buck clinic.


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  11. #151
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    this video gives (and shows) good rope skills.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqOXl2PwC1g



  12. #152
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    Fillabeana's post above brings up a good point--that you have to ultimately look in many places to develop a truly well-rounded horsemanship. The body mechanics aspect is just as important as learning to understand the horse in terms of your emotional relationship to him. This is also where in is helpful to be open to what different riding styles offer. But it all must be done with a critical eye--it's easy to weed out the ugly side of big lick or some of the WP training strategies, but a skeptical but open mind in a dressage rider can get something useful from Buck, and Buck can respect Melanie Smith Taylor even though she first made her name in a jumping saddle. The only "one true way" is to stay humble and keep learning.
    "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

    Spay and neuter. Please.


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  13. #153
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    Mar. 12, 2006
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    Near Portland, OR is Joe Deherra. He trained with Ray Hunt. I had never met a trainer like him before. He puts the best base on a horse. You can build anything from it.

    I have a young fellow helping me with my mare. He got more respect from her in one hour than I have gotten in three months. The good news for me is he said she is not dangerous, just very, very spoiled. He learned from Buck B.
    "All top hat and no canter". *Graureiter*



  14. #154
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    Oct. 9, 2000
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    Forgot to ask a question about ropes...is there a preferred length for working with a rope in a clinic? I think mine might be a bit short. Not sure how long it is but maybe 8'?
    My Mustang Adventures - my blog!
    Yoga for Equestrians
    "A horse's face always conveys clearly whether it is loved by its owner or simply used." - Anja Beran



  15. #155
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    Pocket, I showed up with an 8' lead with a heavy snap. When Buck took my horse, he changed to one of his own halters, with a longer (probably 14' but maybe 12'). My lead rope's heavy snap was 'Barney whacking' my horse's jaw, and Buck did not want that.
    If you have a really large horse (16.2 plus) you'll want a longer lead rope because a big horse will need to be making a larger circle around you. A 15 hand horse is fine on the 12' rope.

    I made my own flag out of a bamboo tomato stake, a handkerchief and some duct tape. I haven't ever seen Buck use a crinkly plastic shopping bag for a flag, though I've seen him use soda cans in a feed bag in a groundwork/sacking out exercise. Anyway, the bamboo is light yet stiff, with some life, and cost me 35 cents at the hardware store.

    You will not necessarily need a rope halter, a regular web one can work if your horse is reasonable and not particularly troubled, pulling away, dragging you around, etc. I've only seen Buck have people change equipment if what they have, does not work. (And usually, it isn't the equipment but rather the operator!) I've also seen him take a horse that was dragging his person around on a lead rope, take off the rope halter and use his lass rope on the horse's face in order to get some extra bite and leverage.

    This is what was on Buck's halters, and what I bought at the tack store:
    http://www.freckerssaddlery.com/product.php?p=51&c=1
    It attaches with a simple sheet bend knot to a rope halter. If you have a web halter with a ring, you'll have to use a bowline knot.



  16. #156
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    I would invest in one of Buck's halters and a 12' treeline lead.



  17. #157
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    Well heck this turned into a jammed pack thread full of useful info!!


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  18. #158
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    BTW, Frecker's is a wonderful business. Kent and his crew produce great saddles and are some of the nicest people out there. Many thumbs up



  19. #159
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    Nov. 15, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by airhorse View Post
    BTW, Frecker's is a wonderful business. Kent and his crew produce great saddles and are some of the nicest people out there. Many thumbs up
    They are. I still cannot believe I sold my Harwood saddle back when I was young and poor.
    We're spending our money on horses and bourbon. The rest we're just wasting.
    www.dleestudio.com



  20. #160
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    I thought ours were 10' leads but I could be off a couple feet, we just get what BIL puts on the halters that go to the clinics.

    The best dang flagging stick in the world is a car antenna with a silk scarf tied to the end! LOL I've been in on some of the design meetings on those flags, and made a few that sold, and they were all modeled off of an old car antenna and a scarf!

    Nope, I'm wrong-these are the BIL good halters and leads that a lot of the clinicians use and at a pretty dang good price. http://www.fourwinds.net/accessor/steeleh.html



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