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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    I'm impressed...this is a mostly fact filled, drama free discussion. Good on us!
    I don't see many facts, just agenda filled web sites.

    Guess that something is posted on the internet makes it true data?

    I would call so much linked to "opinion pieces".


    2 members found this post helpful.

  2. #82
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    Oh well, that didn't last long.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    There's also quite a few standardbreds.
    What's NOT being slaughtered are emaciated, old horses that are being starved by owners...you know, the ones everyone says we need to have slaughter for. Killer buyers are buying young, healthy horses.
    Sixty-three trailer loads arriving at two slaughter plants in Texas were observed in July and August of 1998.

    Fifteen horses (1.5%) that arrived at the slaughter plants were not fit for travel (Table 3). Seventy-eight horses (7.7%) of the 1008 horses had severe welfare problems. Ninety-two percent were in good condition.

    Three percent (30 head) of the arriving horses were skinny and emaciated and 1% (12 hd.) were foundered or had obvious leg injuries. The body condition score of these animals was 1 or 2 (Henneke et all 983).

    http://www.grandin.com/references/horse.transport.html


    Hopefully Temple Grandin is a acceptable source....


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    There's also quite a few standardbreds.
    What's NOT being slaughtered are emaciated, old horses that are being starved by owners...you know, the ones everyone says we need to have slaughter for. Killer buyers are buying young, healthy horses.
    I do find it interesting that pretty much everyone in office who is in favor of opening slaughter plants in the U.S. really does believe its only needed because we have so many emaciated, old horses being starved by owners....

    It's too bad those in favor need to resort to lies to get what they want. I do give props to those in favor who have managed to convince our elected officials that the horse meat industry will thrive due to the surplus of "old, emaciated horses"... sigh....

    I have yet to see a comment by a politician stating we need slaughter so the thousands of over bred Quarter Horses and used up Thoroughbreds can easily be disposed of.

    I was also surprised to learn how little regard cattle ranchers have for their horses:

    Conversely, R-CALF USA, an organization representing about 5,000 family cattle ranching operations, has filed a brief supporting Valley Meat’s legal case. Bill Bullard, its chief executive, said his members needed horse slaughtering facilities to humanely dispose of the horses they used in their businesses once they became old or incapacitated.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/01/bu...ant.html?_r=1&

    God forbid they should actually let a retired old cow horse live out it's days in a pasture on the thousands of acres they run cattle on. Nope, that precious grass is only for the cows.
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg


    3 members found this post helpful.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    Must have been quite a while ago that you were talking to him, or he was pulling your leg:

    There is a misconception that horses are commonly slaughtered for pet food, however. In many countries, like the United States, horse meat was outlawed in pet food in the 1970s.
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...4Sd8Ek&ct=clnk


    'Horsemeat is no longer used in pet food in the US and only a small amount is used by zoos.'
    http://www.americanhorsemeat.com/uploads/Ppt0000002.pdf

    'Even pet food manufacturers understand the hazards of bute which is why in the 1970's they ceased using horse meat in their products.'
    http://www.gadling.com/2011/12/04/ho...ngress-has-li/
    No, not that long ago really. He might have been pulling my leg, he's a great poker face, but I thought he meant not in American markets. So, the ban extends oversees about pet food? This particular convo lasted less than a minute, so I could have misunderstood him. I do know he said the bones are for something special, although I missed whatever it was.

    ETA: I didn't read every word of the links but maybe he meant owners oversees fed their dogs/cats fresh horse meat, instead of it coming in a can.
    Last edited by goneriding24; Mar. 1, 2013 at 02:32 PM. Reason: .
    GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!



  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Oh well, that didn't last long.
    You aren't surprised, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by goneriding24 View Post
    I do know he said the bones are for something special, although I missed whatever it was.
    Glue?
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg



  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    You aren't surprised, right?
    It's my fault...I jinxed it.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Of course, they have papers on hand for each horse, so they know what breed they really are.

    I say, we were training race colts and you would not have walked down the aisle and picked who was a TB and who AQHA just looking at most of them.
    I very much doubt that anyone can call many of the horses in a pen full by breed and know that is what it is, with much certainty.
    Some times, what is presented really doesn't make sense, once we think about it.
    Well if they don't have papers to say what breed it is, they certainly can't know if it's been given a banned substance can they?

    Re: the breed, I believe it has to be ID'd on the EID... will go try to find a reliable source of that document that you can peruse.

    Here ya' go:

    EID and passport info, EU
    http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/farmin...entspassports/

    Canadian EID
    http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/...nexee.shtml#e2


    As of July 31, 2010,*an EID (Equine Information Document) is required for all horses presented at a processing facility in Canada. The document will require an owner-signed declaration to verify the accuracy of the information and include details, dating back 6 months, on the animal's health and any administered medications. A number of medications are no longer permitted in horses being processed for human consumption. For complete details on the*EID, the list of non-permitted drugs, and equine description terms, visit the CFIA web site.

    [If you actually go to the link and click on the words 'CFIA web site', you'll get taken to the actual website. I'm sure you can't argue with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency's own website as a 'reliable, unbiased source', now can you?]

    http://www.albertahorseindustry.ca/i...010&Itemid=283

    IF you will look at this document, FOIA from Beltex of a USDA Owner/Shipper Certificate, [below] you will see that the person dropping the load of horses at the plant indicates what breed/type the horse is.... Again if the person filling out the form can't be expected to accurately know the horses breed, they can't then know that the horses are clean of banned drugs.

    http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/nov24/06-108-Records-A.pdf
    Last edited by Angela Freda; Mar. 1, 2013 at 03:17 PM.



  9. #89
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    Well, to guess at a breed is easy.
    To sign that the horse was not given illegal drugs or not waited long enough for withdrawal can be come back to the trader when the horse is tested and shows positive.
    A BIG difference there.

    I still say, what breed any one horse there, from thousands, may have been is speculation.

    How many grade horses out there get a Coggins where the vet guesses at the bred and that is perfectly legal, knowing that no one can possibly know with many of them?



  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Well, to guess at a breed is easy.
    To sign that the horse was not given illegal drugs or not waited long enough for withdrawal can be come back to the trader when the horse is tested and shows positive.
    A BIG difference there.

    I still say, what breed any one horse there, from thousands, may have been is speculation.

    How many grade horses out there get a Coggins where the vet guesses at the bred and that is perfectly legal, knowing that no one can possibly know with many of them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Of course, they have papers on hand for each horse, so they know what breed they really are.

    I say, we were training race colts and you would not have walked down the aisle and picked who was a TB and who AQHA just looking at most of them.
    I very much doubt that anyone can call many of the horses in a pen full by breed and know that is what it is, with much certainty.
    Some times, what is presented really doesn't make sense, once we think about it.
    Hmmm maybe it's me but you seem to be contradicting yourself... but I agree with you that these shippers guessing at what drugs the horse may/may not have had and signing an IED without having known the horse in some instance for more than a couple days [24 hours stable to table is their motto, don't forget] IS far more problematic than the breed guessing and unlikely accurate or healthy.



  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    Hmmm maybe it's me but you seem to be contradicting yourself...
    Let me try again.

    It is easy because you don't have to be right or wrong, not because you can look at a horse and tell what breed it is.
    No one knows, unless the horse came with papers.

    Clear now?



  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptownevt View Post
    Why is it that whenever someone who is opposed to slaughter posts something they care about there's an immediate pile on? Whatever happened to just ignoring? Isn't that part of maturity; having our own opinions and letting others have theirs?
    Actually it is usually the other way around and those who support slaughter are piled on. Maybe it is the fact that things are getting worse and now horses are also starving in rescues as well as everywhere else. Something/ someone has got to give and we need a way to relieve this burden.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    Sixty-three trailer loads arriving at two slaughter plants in Texas were observed in July and August of 1998.

    Fifteen horses (1.5%) that arrived at the slaughter plants were not fit for travel (Table 3). Seventy-eight horses (7.7%) of the 1008 horses had severe welfare problems. Ninety-two percent were in good condition.

    Three percent (30 head) of the arriving horses were skinny and emaciated and 1% (12 hd.) were foundered or had obvious leg injuries. The body condition score of these animals was 1 or 2 (Henneke et all 983).

    http://www.grandin.com/references/horse.transport.html


    Hopefully Temple Grandin is a acceptable source....
    I strongly agree that transportation, etc. need huge improvements, but really, I think data from 14 years ago shouldn't be used to judge how things may be done in 2013. I'm sure there must be more recent data; it would be interesting to compare to see if stronger enforcement is making the desired changes.

    I think that people stating that skinny horses don't go to slaughter; from the above quote some do, and this was from a period where there were plenty of heavier horses to be found at auctions. I'm sure that is not the perferred state of things, and it seems more auctions are refusing horses with seere welfare issues (per AA's website).

    As far as breed identification, the EU requires someone to fill out the declaration, and apparently this often is the trader. The trader can spend the time to make sure the drugs are out of the system, but that doesn't mean his identification of the breed is going to be any better after 6 months in a feedlot than it would be the day he/she purchased that animal.

    In addition, I keep reading how ALL TBs and SB's MUST have had bute and other chemicals, so if it is a TB or Standardbred on the form (if correctly IDed), it must have had drugs.....how many of each breed actually hit the track? What about all of those at the farms or those used as riding horses? I agree that those with tattoos are suspect, but the drama and exageration is a bit much (often from both sides).


    1 members found this post helpful.

  14. #94
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    Call me cynical but I find it doubtful that with the new plants being opened in the U.S. that anything truly will change in the moving, handling etc of horses bound for these plants. Its still a numbers game and with the new budget cuts looking to hit, it is even more doubtful there will be any funding available for inspections of the plants.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  15. #95
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    I've been told the KB's aren't buying either skinnies or small ponies or donks from New Holland or Crowley's in MA because they take up too much room on the truck for what they get for them at the plant. Likewise, they won't buy greys any more, because they've had too many of those refused due to melanomas.

    Given the commonly-cited statistic of 1% to 2% of horses winding up in this pipeline at all, I don't think we need to solve the "unwanted horse" problem by attempting to re-boot a dead industry which has all the public attraction and viability of Japanese whaling.

    Breeding is way, WAY down. The economic bubble, now burst, has resulted in a "correction" (hate to put it that way!) to the equine overpopulation problem and the prevalence of cellphone cameras and YouTube has made it possible for anything "unsightly" to go viral literally overnight.

    So what needs to happen from here is for people to tend their own house and keep it tidy, not a return to more of this. The wheel is turning in the direction of horses being recognized as companions and pets, not "livestock" for consumption.

    With regard to the EU situation right now, that sounds like it has the stamp of international organized crime all over it. I'm betting that this market has tanked so severely that even Mexico and Canada are going to be unprofitable soon. It's not like they can be making much margin even as it is.

    As for all the arguments that horse, squirrel, possum, and your dear departed Uncle Ralph are all "protein," I don't think the world is quite that hard up for food just yet. Especially with the birth rate falling through the floor all over the industrialized countries.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by andylover View Post
    Call me cynical but I find it doubtful that with the new plants being opened in the U.S. that anything truly will change in the moving, handling etc of horses bound for these plants. Its still a numbers game and with the new budget cuts looking to hit, it is even more doubtful there will be any funding available for inspections of the plants.
    But no inspections, no running; they have to have USDA inspectors there.
    As far as handling of the horses, etc., that is where people have a chance to make a difference; fight for laws that cover those things, demand follow-up with complaints, etc.

    Everyones excuse to the above is "but we tried it before and it didn't work perfectly, so it won't this time either!!!!!!" I find it ironic with horse people that that is an acceptable excuse; we won't ever use that excuse with our animals (Fluffy wouldn't do it or is slow to make changes, so I'm going to give up because it will never get better no matter what".....um, yeah, right).



  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by andylover View Post
    Call me cynical but I find it doubtful that with the new plants being opened in the U.S. that anything truly will change in the moving, handling etc of horses bound for these plants. Its still a numbers game and with the new budget cuts looking to hit, it is even more doubtful there will be any funding available for inspections of the plants.
    That is what I think also, that in the end, there won't be inspectors out there, with one or another reason/excuse, so all this hand wringing about slaughter opening will be moot.

    Then, I have been wrong before.



  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    I strongly agree that transportation, etc. need huge improvements, but really, I think data from 14 years ago shouldn't be used to judge how things may be done in 2013. I'm sure there must be more recent data; it would be interesting to compare to see if stronger enforcement is making the desired changes.

    I think that people stating that skinny horses don't go to slaughter; from the above quote some do, and this was from a period where there were plenty of heavier horses to be found at auctions. I'm sure that is not the perferred state of things, and it seems more auctions are refusing horses with seere welfare issues (per AA's website).

    As far as breed identification, the EU requires someone to fill out the declaration, and apparently this often is the trader. The trader can spend the time to make sure the drugs are out of the system, but that doesn't mean his identification of the breed is going to be any better after 6 months in a feedlot than it would be the day he/she purchased that animal.

    In addition, I keep reading how ALL TBs and SB's MUST have had bute and other chemicals, so if it is a TB or Standardbred on the form (if correctly IDed), it must have had drugs.....how many of each breed actually hit the track? What about all of those at the farms or those used as riding horses? I agree that those with tattoos are suspect, but the drama and exageration is a bit much (often from both sides).
    Well first of all others were insisting I provide back up to my claims that things were bad in the past... AND as to finding more recent data, ... be my guest I would love to see what there is if you find any.

    As to the idea that things will be done better in 2013 simply because it's now 2013... why is that an absolute? What's the incentive and where will the $$ come from to enforce the regulations? Seems more likely that they will start up the way they left off... UNLESS there are incentives not to and enforcement of whatever regulations are put into place... if there's $$ to enforce in the first place. There hasn't been in the past, when the economy was better but hey maybe ya'll know something I don't.

    Add in that the demand for the meat might be falling, thanks to them trying to slip it past unsuspecting consumers [via mislabeling] and not only getting caught but getting caught with Bute tainted meat... that came from Europe where they supposedly don't allow any in because they have passports to verify clean horses... With all that said, I can't see how the consumer would then want more of that meat, or any of ours that is less traceable or verifiable to be free of banned drugs.

    As for TB and STBs who are on farms or riding horses... most of them started out racing. Not all of them, but most. And riding horses and breeding horses get drugs too.

    A tattoo only shows that the horses was cleared through a starting gate or was at some point destined to be on a track... they are not tattoo'd at birth, nor is a tattoo any proof that they ever raced. However, a tattoo certainly doesn't mean anything about what drugs they may/may not have had.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by candyappy View Post
    Actually it is usually the other way around and those who support slaughter are piled on. Maybe it is the fact that things are getting worse and now horses are also starving in rescues as well as everywhere else. Something/ someone has got to give and we need a way to relieve this burden.
    This was predicted several years ago. At the time those anti slaughter folks claimed the nasty breeders were still flooding the market.

    The market has curtailed itself and severly dropped.

    Example...American Saddlebreds...stallion reports 2010 just over 1000 filed. 2011 was just over 450 and many of those were for ONE mare..

    Quarter Horse have also stated reduced by 30+% for stallion reports. Those reports are necessary for breeders to fill or it will cost them a LOT of money to register foals

    TB breedings are down and some states now have their facing groups refusing to take entries from trainers who have dumped horses knowing they are going to slaughter.

    The anti slaughter groups refuse to go on tours. As for ranchers...please tell me what is KIND and LOVING about a rancher who turns the old horse out on those thousand of acres...Dry winter...no snow to eat (which is not great for a horse anyway especially when they have not been bred as wildies...therefore small and able to subsist on limited feed. Or...they now are STARVING and in a weakened state are brought down by coyotes, cougars, wolves etc and eaten ALIVE.. Slaugter EVEN if two bolts are used is over in 7-10 seconds. Eating aliver can take up to TEN MINUTES... with the horse SCREAMING.

    Get the picture....

    Jenn..you need to come out west. Cattle are brought up to the ranch for feeding during the winter. They don't just "go where the deer and the antelope play" on thousands of acres when it is 40 F below.

    A quick death for an old horse is kinder than losing weight...suffering the cold and trying to find dried grass under feet of snow.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  20. #100
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    Oh brother; you and your pro-slaughter peeps still shoveling the "slaughter is better than starvation" pablum?

    How about just telling the truth?

    1.) People want a convenient way to dispose of their horse(s)

    2.) The meat, cattle, and livestock industry want to slaughter horses to protect their "slaughter rights" for other animals.

    There? Wasn't that easy?


    6 members found this post helpful.

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