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  1. #61
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    I thought that Bute did not have a withdrawal time. Once consumed it's in there.


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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    I thought that Bute did not have a withdrawal time. Once consumed it's in there.
    that is an assumption that is hard to believe, unless it's heavy metal.

    But I am waiting to hear studies that prove me wrong....
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  3. #63
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    Why is it that whenever someone who is opposed to slaughter posts something they care about there's an immediate pile on? Whatever happened to just ignoring? Isn't that part of maturity; having our own opinions and letting others have theirs?
    "The captive bolt is not a proper tool for slaughter of equids they regain consciousness 30 seconds after being struck fully aware they are being vivisected." Dr Friedlander DVM & frmr Chief USDA Insp


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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    I thought that Bute did not have a withdrawal time. Once consumed it's in there.
    Banamine has a specified withdrawal period in cattle. I can't imagine it would be any different for bute in horses. I suspect no one has bothered to test it.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    I thought that Bute did not have a withdrawal time. Once consumed it's in there.
    Apparently it does remain to some degree as there is concern now about the European scandal:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/fe...t-bute-q-and-a

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/fe...ute-food-chain

    Horsemeat scandal deepens as minister says bute may be in food chain

    Horse carcasses that tested positive for drug may have entered food chain in France, farming minister tells Commons


    Eight horses slaughtered for food in the UK have tested positive for the veterinary painkiller phenylbutazone, known as bute, new tests from the Food Standards Agency (FSA) revealed on Thursday.
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg


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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Banamine has a specified withdrawal period in cattle. I can't imagine it would be any different for bute in horses. I suspect no one has bothered to test it.
    No bute, ever.

    http://www.pennsylvaniaequestrian.co...U-ban-1009.php

    'Medicines equines are routinely treated with have withdrawal periods – the time it takes residue clear their systems -- some of which are known and some of which have not been studied. EU residue-control requirements are non-negotiable and rigorously enforced.

    Some Always Unsafe

    But certain medications are considered unsafe under all circumstances, and horses treated with them will be banned from the EU food chain. Among them are certain commonly used classes of antibiotics, called chloramphenicols and nitroimidazoles, and growth hormones. '


    Again not RaRas saying so, it the EU that does not allow these drugs [see below link]

    http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/.../annexee.shtml


    http://ec.europa.eu/food/food/chemic...nt.htm#5.3.1.1

    Any horse in the EU treated with phenylbutazone must be excluded from the food chain and be signed out of the food chain in the equine passport. (Link to source)


    There's a table of allowable substances available here:
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...01:0072:EN:PDF

    Another list of drugs not allowed:
    http://www.vetsforequinewelfare.org/...ited-drugs.php
    Incl:
    'Ingredient Name: phenylbutazone
    Trade Names: Phenylzone (Schering), Bute Tabs (Vedco), Phenylbute (Phoenix Pharmaceutical)
    Phenylbutazone (commonly referred to as "bute") is currently approved only for oral and injectable use in dogs and horses. Use in horses is limited to use in horses not intended for food. There are currently no approved uses of phenylbutazone in food-producing animals.'



    Another list of banned meds [with references]:
    http://www.frontrangeequinerescue.or...drug.chart.pdf


    The FDA, like the EU and UK, specifically bans the use of PBZ in
    any horse destined for slaughter for human consumption.

    from:

    http://www.equinewelfarealliance.org...logy_FINAL.pdf


    This link [below] has a list of those substances that are banned and those with a 6 month clearance time:
    http://habitatforhorses.wordpress.com/tag/drugs/


    '
    Conclusion
    The Committee understands that phenylbutazone is an important medicine to maintain the welfare of older horses and is widely used to treat horses that are kept as companion animals. However, keepers of horses and veterinary surgeons must comply with their obligations under the legislation in relation to administering medicines to horses that may be destined for the food chain, to avoid consumers being exposed to potentially harmful residues.

    The simplest way to do this is to ensure that the passport of any horse that has been treated with phenylbutazone has been appropriately signed to declare that it cannot enter the food chain.


    from:
    http://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/vrc/pdf/...ylbutazone.pdf
    Last edited by Angela Freda; Mar. 1, 2013 at 12:32 PM.


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  7. #67
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    Interesting. Thanks Angela. If it's not safe for humans, then I have to assume it's probably not a good thing in pet food either.

    Of course, I suspect the people who buy food like Ol' Roy's don't really care what's in it. Note: If I offended anyone, I'm sorry but it's terrible food.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Interesting. Thanks Angela. If it's not safe for humans, then I have to assume it's probably not a good thing in pet food either.
    I believe so, but lunch break is almost over and that research will have to wait.


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  9. #69
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    If not for human vittles, the horses are used for pet food. The bones are used for something especially. A KB told me that quite a while back. Yes, I talk to the KB because I also buy horses now and again from him.

    I can't raise my own beef, I'm such a wimp. If I look into those baby brown eyes, well, the critter will die a natural death on my place. I'm good with steak under plastic at the local store, though. I can also buy a half beef which has been raised a certain way (might take a couple of months before I get him on the table) and I can eat that, as long as I don't see the varmint on the hoof beforehand.

    As for a vegan diet, if someone wants to only eat plants, let them. I go through spurts of steak, taters and gravy then switch off to a sort of Mediterranean diet. I just found a book about Paleo at the library. For me, have to have a lot of variety.
    GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!



  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptownevt View Post
    Why is it that whenever someone who is opposed to slaughter posts something they care about there's an immediate pile on? Whatever happened to just ignoring? Isn't that part of maturity; having our own opinions and letting others have theirs?
    oh, gimme a break.
    it's not like the threads are started under the assumption there won't be any controversy.

    bring me facts and arguments, we can discuss it til the cows come home.

    once we enter the land of hyperbole and fiction it becomes a bit harder not to be sarcastic!

    Horses are not some mythical noble creature that single handedly shaped the Western world. Heck, The Huns ate their horses, the Mongols still do, I guess we can agree their culture is shaped by horse, much more than ours ever was.

    It is usually a matter of 'if you are for slaughter, you are a puppy kicking meany'
    which is bogus.
    although I do have to admit, I am having a hard time taking pro ban people serious. And not because I love the smell of blood in the morning, but because the failed argument of how the horse is so much more special than other barn yard creatures.
    Horses are tasty meat creatures, like the est of them.
    Cows have interesting personalities and social structures, to a larger extend than horses, actually, pigs are way smarter than horses....

    AAnd hyperbole as argument just does not sit well with me, like all horse slaughter is always cruel, all transport is always cruel, etc, no horse is ever put down with the first shot...
    all the horses are medicated...

    As the articles show about the horses that did test positive for bute, about 4 percent are believed to have tested positive and made it into the food chain...

    NOW, the little math test: how much bute do you have to give a horse that a - lets be generous - 12 once serving could cause harm to a person! 1200 grams? more? Less?
    How much contaminated horse does a person have to eat to get sick? one helping in his lifetime? 10 each day?

    Aside from the fact that we know enough people who do not give basic care to their horses, nor feed, what are the chances they sell to the kill buyer, over the pampered pet horse....staggering I'd say....
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  11. #71
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    CHQR radio station, Dave Rutherford show, yesterday, had a segment on the slaughter industry and the impact of the wrong labelling.

    The market dropped this week and three Canadian plants were suspending kill activities until this weekend. They make it sound like there is "no business" however they have an enormous Asian market..but they are using this "down time" to clean and sterilize and also replace equipment..by doing so, when there is a "ban" they can actually get Government money for the down time.

    The Asian market was discussed and they too are looking at a system where there is a 6 months of no chemicals. Feedlots are the result of those decisions.

    I did not catch the university in the U.S. that is conducting Bute impact and or longevity within the horse meat...(I emailed for it) however the person stated there has not been any proof of any cancer development in humans from it.

    He went on to say they have applied a much higher standard to horsemeat than they do for any cattle meat. The number of chemicals that enter into the Dairy catttle is extremely high...despite alternate claims by some groups.

    He also stated that in Canada and the U.S. the majority of the horses shipped for slaughter are NOT old family pets...old broodmares after a long line of production nor trail companions. He did acknowledge of course those groups ARE sent to slaughter however they only account for 5% of the total.

    The others tend to be animals who have not been handled...yes..mares with foals....breeders gone amuk and the economy. Those unhandled horses have never had bute nor any dewormer

    The EU, when confronted with tests showing WORMS imbeded into muscles and cavity linings from horses that had never been dewormed suddenly went very silent. Of course those worms are killed with cooking...same as beef, lamb, pork etc.

    The EU,. according to the guest is NOT in agreement country by county with a passport system. He also stated that many of the disruptions are such as the one in Mexico where a French Vet, without any authority said no horse meat from Mexico would be acceptible. That was also a case of incorrect labelling.

    He was very confident that U.S. plants would start to reappear soon.


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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by goneriding24 View Post
    If not for human vittles, the horses are used for pet food. The bones are used for something especially. A KB told me that quite a while back. Yes, I talk to the KB because I also buy horses now and again from him.

    I can't raise my own beef, I'm such a wimp. If I look into those baby brown eyes, well, the critter will die a natural death on my place. I'm good with steak under plastic at the local store, though. I can also buy a half beef which has been raised a certain way (might take a couple of months before I get him on the table) and I can eat that, as long as I don't see the varmint on the hoof beforehand.

    As for a vegan diet, if someone wants to only eat plants, let them. I go through spurts of steak, taters and gravy then switch off to a sort of Mediterranean diet. I just found a book about Paleo at the library. For me, have to have a lot of variety.
    Must have been quite a while ago that you were talking to him, or he was pulling your leg:

    There is a misconception that horses are commonly slaughtered for pet food, however. In many countries, like the United States, horse meat was outlawed in pet food in the 1970s.
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...4Sd8Ek&ct=clnk


    'Horsemeat is no longer used in pet food in the US and only a small amount is used by zoos.'
    http://www.americanhorsemeat.com/uploads/Ppt0000002.pdf

    'Even pet food manufacturers understand the hazards of bute which is why in the 1970's they ceased using horse meat in their products.'
    http://www.gadling.com/2011/12/04/ho...ngress-has-li/


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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Interesting. Thanks Angela. If it's not safe for humans, then I have to assume it's probably not a good thing in pet food either.

    Of course, I suspect the people who buy food like Ol' Roy's don't really care what's in it. Note: If I offended anyone, I'm sorry but it's terrible food.
    It's been proven to cause aplastic anemia in children, and the babies of pregnant women who consume it.

    Dog food (commercial) in the US hasn't contained horsemeat since the late 70's.


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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    oh, gimme a break.
    it's not like the threads are started under the assumption there won't be any controversy.

    bring me facts and arguments, we can discuss it til the cows come home.

    once we enter the land of hyperbole and fiction it becomes a bit harder not to be sarcastic!

    Horses are not some mythical noble creature that single handedly shaped the Western world. Heck, The Huns ate their horses, the Mongols still do, I guess we can agree their culture is shaped by horse, much more than ours ever was.

    It is usually a matter of 'if you are for slaughter, you are a puppy kicking meany'
    which is bogus.
    although I do have to admit, I am having a hard time taking pro ban people serious. And not because I love the smell of blood in the morning, but because the failed argument of how the horse is so much more special than other barn yard creatures.
    Horses are tasty meat creatures, like the est of them.
    Cows have interesting personalities and social structures, to a larger extend than horses, actually, pigs are way smarter than horses....

    AAnd hyperbole as argument just does not sit well with me, like all horse slaughter is always cruel, all transport is always cruel, etc, no horse is ever put down with the first shot...
    all the horses are medicated...

    As the articles show about the horses that did test positive for bute, about 4 percent are believed to have tested positive and made it into the food chain...

    NOW, the little math test: how much bute do you have to give a horse that a - lets be generous - 12 once serving could cause harm to a person! 1200 grams? more? Less?
    How much contaminated horse does a person have to eat to get sick? one helping in his lifetime? 10 each day?

    Aside from the fact that we know enough people who do not give basic care to their horses, nor feed, what are the chances they sell to the kill buyer, over the pampered pet horse....staggering I'd say....
    Racehorses and ex performance horses make up a fairly large percentage of horses slaughtered, and they almost certainly have had Bute. In the case of racehorses many have also had Equipoise, or Clenbuterol which are also banned.
    Many H/j horses receive Bute after a day of showing. It's the equivilant of a person taking a couple of Ibuprofen after working out.


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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    CHQR radio station, Dave Rutherford show, yesterday, had a segment on the slaughter industry and the impact of the wrong labelling....


    He also stated that in Canada and the U.S. the majority of the horses shipped for slaughter are NOT old family pets...old broodmares after a long line of production nor trail companions. He did acknowledge of course those groups ARE sent to slaughter however they only account for 5% of the total.

    The others tend to be animals who have not been handled...yes..mares with foals....breeders gone amuk and the economy. Those unhandled horses have never had bute nor any dewormer
    Per below: USDA FOIA documents show that 19% of the horses going to slaughter are Thoroughbreds.

    http://www.savingamericashorses.org/...-2010-WFLF.pdf


    FOIA documents here RE: horses slaughtered by breed type:
    http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/foiadatabase.html


    1 members found this post helpful.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    Per below: USDA FOIA documents show that 19% of the horses going to slaughter are Thoroughbreds.

    http://www.savingamericashorses.org/...-2010-WFLF.pdf


    FOIA documents here RE: horses slaughtered by breed type:
    http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/foiadatabase.html
    There's also quite a few standardbreds.
    What's NOT being slaughtered are emaciated, old horses that are being starved by owners...you know, the ones everyone says we need to have slaughter for. Killer buyers are buying young, healthy horses.


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  17. #77
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    I'm impressed...this is a mostly fact filled, drama free discussion. Good on us!
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    2 members found this post helpful.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    I'm impressed...this is a mostly fact filled, drama free discussion. Good on us!



  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptownevt View Post
    Why is it that whenever someone who is opposed to slaughter posts something they care about there's an immediate pile on? Whatever happened to just ignoring? Isn't that part of maturity; having our own opinions and letting others have theirs?
    Why is it that, when someone gives their opinion on horse slaughter, with direct experience about it, gets piled on by those with ideas of pretty horses, how can we think of using them one more time after death and called all kinds of names?

    Where is the maturity on that?


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  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    Per below: USDA FOIA documents show that 19% of the horses going to slaughter are Thoroughbreds.

    http://www.savingamericashorses.org/...-2010-WFLF.pdf


    FOIA documents here RE: horses slaughtered by breed type:
    http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/foiadatabase.html
    Of course, they have papers on hand for each horse, so they know what breed they really are.

    I say, we were training race colts and you would not have walked down the aisle and picked who was a TB and who AQHA just looking at most of them.
    I very much doubt that anyone can call many of the horses in a pen full by breed and know that is what it is, with much certainty.
    Some times, what is presented really doesn't make sense, once we think about it.


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