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  1. #301
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    Yes, the "jobs creation" argument is another royal howler!

    "What do you want to be when you grow up, Johnny?"

    "Gee, Mom, I'd love to be the knock-box operator at Cavel!"


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  2. #302
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    Angela, the Working Undercover article is quite thought provoking and not just in the slaughter industry, but as far as workers in 3rd world countries and drones. Thank you.

    http://boingboing.net/2012/03/08/wor...-a-slaugh.html



  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post

    Yes, those that have been in slaughter plants and know how they work can tell you "it ain't so" until they are blue in the face, ...
    Then why have a number of states either banned or are in the process of banning undercover photography and videos in slaughter plants? You know, since it's all happiness and butterflies in the plants?


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  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Angela, the Working Undercover article is quite thought provoking and not just in the slaughter industry, but as far as workers in 3rd world countries and drones. Thank you.

    http://boingboing.net/2012/03/08/wor...-a-slaugh.html

    That is my point, when people want to ban slaughter and bring up management questions, well, that is the same no matter where you have to manage workers and we don't go asking all such be banned, do we?

    What management problems bring is need for better management, not using that to ban something someone doesn't like, a point that keeps being ignored and used time and again by those wanting to ban slaughter or else.


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  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Then why have a number of states either banned or are in the process of banning undercover photography and videos in slaughter plants? You know, since it's all happiness and butterflies in the plants?
    Because those videos and pictures are used to manipulate opinion by those with agendas against our use of animals.

    There are other ways to monitor in place today, by independent companies offering those services.

    There are some videos already out there showing, well, nothing wrong.
    Temple Grandin has some, but since there is no mayhem to show, those don't count, right?


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  6. #306
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    This is why they want to ban undercover taping and photography:

    http://www.farmforward.com/features/ag-gag

    Bluey, I'm not talking about banning, I'm talking about fixing the problems.


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  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    This is why they want to ban undercover taping and photography:

    http://www.farmforward.com/features/ag-gag

    Bluey, I'm not talking about banning, I'm talking about fixing the problems.
    Maybe you are not talking about banning, but then you are in the minority here.
    Have you not noticed that is what all this talk is about, BANNING slaughter?
    Read the title of this thread.

    These debates are not about how to slaughter horses better, but the drive by animal rights extremists to ban horse slaughter first, other animal uses too, to come later.

    The rest is just noise to muddle the topic, that is the drive to ban slaughter, no compromise there.


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  8. #308
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    Not everyone is talking about banning, not by a long shot. Go back and read the posts.


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  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    Yes, the "jobs creation" argument is another royal howler!

    "What do you want to be when you grow up, Johnny?"

    "Gee, Mom, I'd love to be the knock-box operator at Cavel!"
    An unknown percentage of workers are undocumented. Many employers knowingly hire undocumented workers in an effort to satisfy the extremely high turnover rate of the industry, which often exceeds 100% annually.[3] In some cases, they provide incentives for current workers to recruit family and friends and even help new workers to create fake social security cards. Undocumented workers are constantly faced with the threat of deportation - either by their employer or by federal raids.
    Most workers are "at-will" employees, meaning they can be easily fired at a supervisor's discretion. The threat of termination discourages workers from reporting safety concerns, injuries, or other serious issues. Supervisors use a variety of intimidation tactics to suppress workers' concerns and make it clear that other people are always available to replace them. As a result, workers are conditioned to accept a hazardous and demeaning work environment if they want to remain employed.

    However, slaughterhouse and "meat"-processing workers labor each day in conditions with predictable risks despite the fact that employers are aware of safer alternatives. Consequently, many of the injuries and deaths that workers suffer are preventable.

    Line Speed
    The single largest factor contributing to worker injuries is the speed at which the animals are killed and processed. In an industry where profit margins are slim and volume is everything, workers are endlessly pressured to kill more animals in less time. Rather than regulate line speeds for the interest of worker safety, line speed is limited only by federal sanitation laws.[4]

    Working an 8-hour shift in this type of environment is physically and mentally exhausting. The situation gets far more dangerous when workers are required to work mandatory overtime. According to one employee: "The last hour of a regular shift is hard. You're tired and it's hard to concentrate. Then they tell you to work two hours overtime. That's when it gets downright dangerous."[7]

    In recent years, the industry has bragged about dramatic reductions in worker injuries. What they've failed to report is that the OSHA injury form was recently re-written to omit the category of repetitive stress injuries - the most commonly reported injury in the industry.
    The corporate mindset is glaring in this worker's statement: Once the company got fined for safety violations and the manager told us: "Be careful or we'll have to pay more fines" - not be careful because you might get hurt.[8]

    A former kill floor manager gave the following account: "The worst thing, worse than the physical danger, is the emotional toll. . . . Pigs down on the kill floor have come up and nuzzled me like a puppy. Two minutes later I had to kill them-beat them to death with a pipe. I can't care."[9]



    http://www.foodispower.org/slaughterhouse_workers.php

    Please note that the above linked article offers references to many other sources of this information. And yes, some of it is 10 years old. I don't know how that changes anything, as I could not find any newer articles stating how much better things have gotten. Maybe others who know that it has [gotten better] can offer those sources for us to look at?



  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    An unknown percentage of workers are undocumented. Many employers knowingly hire undocumented workers in an effort to satisfy the extremely high turnover rate of the industry, which often exceeds 100% annually.[3] In some cases, they provide incentives for current workers to recruit family and friends and even help new workers to create fake social security cards. Undocumented workers are constantly faced with the threat of deportation - either by their employer or by federal raids.
    Most workers are "at-will" employees, meaning they can be easily fired at a supervisor's discretion. The threat of termination discourages workers from reporting safety concerns, injuries, or other serious issues. Supervisors use a variety of intimidation tactics to suppress workers' concerns and make it clear that other people are always available to replace them. As a result, workers are conditioned to accept a hazardous and demeaning work environment if they want to remain employed.

    However, slaughterhouse and "meat"-processing workers labor each day in conditions with predictable risks despite the fact that employers are aware of safer alternatives. Consequently, many of the injuries and deaths that workers suffer are preventable.

    Line Speed
    The single largest factor contributing to worker injuries is the speed at which the animals are killed and processed. In an industry where profit margins are slim and volume is everything, workers are endlessly pressured to kill more animals in less time. Rather than regulate line speeds for the interest of worker safety, line speed is limited only by federal sanitation laws.[4]

    Working an 8-hour shift in this type of environment is physically and mentally exhausting. The situation gets far more dangerous when workers are required to work mandatory overtime. According to one employee: "The last hour of a regular shift is hard. You're tired and it's hard to concentrate. Then they tell you to work two hours overtime. That's when it gets downright dangerous."[7]

    In recent years, the industry has bragged about dramatic reductions in worker injuries. What they've failed to report is that the OSHA injury form was recently re-written to omit the category of repetitive stress injuries - the most commonly reported injury in the industry.
    The corporate mindset is glaring in this worker's statement: Once the company got fined for safety violations and the manager told us: "Be careful or we'll have to pay more fines" - not be careful because you might get hurt.[8]

    A former kill floor manager gave the following account: "The worst thing, worse than the physical danger, is the emotional toll. . . . Pigs down on the kill floor have come up and nuzzled me like a puppy. Two minutes later I had to kill them-beat them to death with a pipe. I can't care."[9]



    http://www.foodispower.org/slaughterhouse_workers.php

    Please note that the above linked article offers references to many other sources of this information. And yes, some of it is 10 years old. I don't know how that changes anything, as I could not find any newer articles stating how much better things have gotten. Maybe others who know that it has [gotten better] can offer those sources for us to look at?
    More extraneous noise.
    All places that use workers have management plans and oversight and training and their problems.

    That is handled thru management, not banning whole industries because there are management problems.

    Why do you keep talking against slaughter any one way you find, in a discussion to BAN slaughter, bringing abuse and mismanagement as if that is just because this is slaughter, ignoring that is a different topic, how to manage and make slaughter better?

    Those that say they are not for banning slaughter outright, do you read what you are posting, all purely against slaughter any way you can find to do so?


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  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    Yes because a scheduled visit wouldn't alert them to play nicer and behave better, right?

    Signs of underground activity were observed during the survey. At New Holland, one arriving trailer left without unloading when its driver saw the first author at the unloading dock. At one of the slaughter plants, horse numbers greatly decreased during the last day of observations. Word was out among the dealers that they were being "watched" for bad horses. The load which contained the Belgians and carriage horses was a load that the dealers had collected that was not fit for sale at the New Holland auction. As our days of observation increased the incidence of carcass damage caused by rough truck drivers with sticks may have decreased. People knew they were being watched.

    http://www.grandin.com/references/horse.transport.html


    There's also a study Temple Grandin did when she worked on making a pig slaughtering plant more humane AND more efficient with fewer accidents... in which after a few months of doing things on their own after Ms Grandin left, they slid back into their old ways of doing things... slid back into the old habits that were less safe, less efficient and less humane.

    That's how the world works, when people are watching, those being watched tend to toe the line.
    When not being watched things go to hell in a handbasket.
    Alert them? nah...they would also let you view the tapes from the previous kill day. What groups have done is tried to schedule ongoing tours every day trying to slow the process. This is a business. They WILL give tours but not 24/7. I remember posting we had two ladies and a male friend come to the plant on a Wednesday when I was volunteering. They had little to say until the horses were moving into the chute. Then they lit firecrackers and threw them at the horses while their male friend video taped it.

    Horses were injured horribly..broken bones.

    Of course the ladies were apprehended and charged (turns out they were from the Alberta chapter of PETA) but again..management learned something. The chutes needed to be redesigned just incase something else spoked them.

    Anti groups quote Grandin ONLY when she makes a statement supporting their views.

    The Fort has an INCENTIVE program that is very very successful. AND the entrance into the plant until the kill is complete is taped.

    Heck..Doctors operating rooms do not have that type of ongoing watching.

    Why are you not protesting the Humane Societies and SPCA's that GAS cats and dogs to death. That can take up to FIFTEEN MINUTES...

    How about the stories where the non kill pet rescues just ship their animals to the kill rescues for dogs and cats. How about the groups who claim they do not use gas but volunteers state that is not so.

    I would think that a 15 minute excruciating death would evoke anger on the anti slaughter groups psyche..but on..no...they IGNORE THAT...

    Back to Solutions. What solution do you have that will remove 150,000 horses from the "excess inventory" in one year and will not cost the tax payer any money? Inspectors for plants are paid for by taxes so that is not a valid rebuttal.

    Euthanization clinics are great...who is going to pay for them? How do you get money from someone who has none..please don't say they shouldn't own horses. Many have been trying since 2009 to get rid of theirs.

    Truckers...make laws and enforce them. They haul cattle, swine, sheep and horses. They have learned they can not cross into Canada if they have injured animals or are over the numbers. Of course there are exceptions where a lazy border person waves them through...that also can be dealt with.

    Back to YOUR immediate solutions



  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Alert them? nah...they would also let you view the tapes from the previous kill day. What groups have done is tried to schedule ongoing tours every day trying to slow the process. This is a business. They WILL give tours but not 24/7. I remember posting we had two ladies and a male friend come to the plant on a Wednesday when I was volunteering. They had little to say until the horses were moving into the chute. Then they lit firecrackers and threw them at the horses while their male friend video taped it.

    Horses were injured horribly..broken bones.

    Of course the ladies were apprehended and charged (turns out they were from the Alberta chapter of PETA) but again..management learned something. The chutes needed to be redesigned just incase something else spoked them.

    Anti groups quote Grandin ONLY when she makes a statement supporting their views.

    The Fort has an INCENTIVE program that is very very successful. AND the entrance into the plant until the kill is complete is taped.

    Heck..Doctors operating rooms do not have that type of ongoing watching.

    Why are you not protesting the Humane Societies and SPCA's that GAS cats and dogs to death. That can take up to FIFTEEN MINUTES...

    How about the stories where the non kill pet rescues just ship their animals to the kill rescues for dogs and cats. How about the groups who claim they do not use gas but volunteers state that is not so.

    I would think that a 15 minute excruciating death would evoke anger on the anti slaughter groups psyche..but on..no...they IGNORE THAT...


    Back to Solutions. What solution do you have that will remove 150,000 horses from the "excess inventory" in one year and will not cost the tax payer any money? Inspectors for plants are paid for by taxes so that is not a valid rebuttal.

    Euthanization clinics are great...who is going to pay for them? How do you get money from someone who has none..please don't say they shouldn't own horses. Many have been trying since 2009 to get rid of theirs.

    Truckers...make laws and enforce them. They haul cattle, swine, sheep and horses. They have learned they can not cross into Canada if they have injured animals or are over the numbers. Of course there are exceptions where a lazy border person waves them through...that also can be dealt with.

    Back to YOUR immediate solutions
    The problems exist, the plants in our country are presently closed because, in part, of those issues. *I* don't have to do anything.

    You want them to re-open? It's not up to me to prove that they are ____ [as cited by my links], but for those who want them to re-open to show that they will not again be as they were- horrible neighbors for years, horrible employers for years, inhumane, focusing on the bottom line,...

    It's not up to me, it's up to you. So far you've offered nothing of the sort of proof one would like to see to feel comfortable that it will, in fact, be run differently.

    And dear Fairfax, as enlightened as you may be, you can't possibly know what anyone does/does not do about the other issues you've thrown onto the pile.



  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    More extraneous noise.
    All places that use workers have management plans and oversight and training and their problems.

    That is handled thru management, not banning whole industries because there are management problems.

    Why do you keep talking against slaughter any one way you find, in a discussion to BAN slaughter, bringing abuse and mismanagement as if that is just because this is slaughter, ignoring that is a different topic, how to manage and make slaughter better?

    Those that say they are not for banning slaughter outright, do you read what you are posting, all purely against slaughter any way you can find to do so?
    The point, Bluey, which you don't want to get, is that we can DO BETTER by our animals--ALL animals--but only if the corporate culture changes to allow transparency. If they are not willing to do so, the suspicion rises that they have something inherently to hide. Based on the above, sounds like quite a bit!

    With regard to horses, in the USA at this time the question is moot. I for one would consider it a big step up for the human race if horses, primarily a companion species rather than raised for food, no longer had to be subjected to this in North America.

    I am not a RARA, since I'm on a permanent Atkins diet I eat a LOT of meat, and I am not against the utilization of food species for same. However, I think as a people we should be doing a lot better to make the process of raising and processing these animals as humane as it can possibly be. Ditto for the workers.

    Stop trying to dismiss the messengers by demagoguery just because you disagree with the message.


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  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    The point, Bluey, which you don't want to get, is that we can DO BETTER by our animals--ALL animals--but only if the corporate culture changes to allow transparency. If they are not willing to do so, the suspicion rises that they have something inherently to hide. Based on the above, sounds like quite a bit!

    With regard to horses, in the USA at this time the question is moot. I for one would consider it a big step up for the human race if horses, primarily a companion species rather than raised for food, no longer had to be subjected to this in North America.

    I am not a RARA, since I'm on a permanent Atkins diet I eat a LOT of meat, and I am not against the utilization of food species for same. However, I think as a people we should be doing a lot better to make the process of raising and processing these animals as humane as it can possibly be. Ditto for the workers.

    Stop trying to dismiss the messengers by demagoguery just because you disagree with the message.
    Guess that Fairfax already was expecting your post.
    He answered in post 311 before you asked.



  15. #315
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    (Someone deleted the post I was answering to?
    When you do that, the quoted post disappears and leaves any answer looking out of place, as here.)

    You got that one wrong.
    I don't care if they open a plant or not, at all.

    I care that we don't lose our rights to do so with a ban.
    THAT is what is important.



  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    This is why they want to ban undercover taping and photography:

    http://www.farmforward.com/features/ag-gag
    From the above link:
    The Food Safety Inspection Service (FSIS, a division of the USDA) conducted an investigation after the recall and found that "there is an inherent vulnerability that humane handling violations can occur and not be detected by FSIS inspectors because FSIS does not provide continuous surveillance."17 FSIS found "deliberate actions by Hallmark personnel to bypass required inspections, as well as noncompliance with required inspection procedures by FSIS in-plant staff."

    Niiiiice



  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    From the above link:
    The Food Safety Inspection Service (FSIS, a division of the USDA) conducted an investigation after the recall and found that "there is an inherent vulnerability that humane handling violations can occur and not be detected by FSIS inspectors because FSIS does not provide continuous surveillance."17 FSIS found "deliberate actions by Hallmark personnel to bypass required inspections, as well as noncompliance with required inspection procedures by FSIS in-plant staff."

    Niiiiice
    Bingo. Anytime you're trying to turn live animals into dead ones at high speed, cruel abuse is inherent to the situation. As long as profits are held to be a higher value than basic humanity, this will always be the equation. It seems we haven't really come so far after all since Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle."


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  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    Bingo. Anytime you're trying to turn live animals into dead ones at high speed, cruel abuse is inherent to the situation. As long as profits are held to be a higher value than basic humanity, this will always be the equation. It seems we haven't really come so far after all since Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle."
    You are ignoring so much that is done well today.

    Many programs have independent auditors, many demand that from their suppliers, Mc D one of them and there is NO abuse or rough handling permitted anywhere.

    You are assuming wrong to say that is just the way it is, any more than saying, when reading some study of police brutality, see, all police are brutes, it is what it takes to be a policeman.


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  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    You are ignoring so much that is done well today.

    Many programs have independent auditors, many demand that from their suppliers, Mc D one of them and there is NO abuse or rough handling permitted anywhere.

    You are assuming wrong to say that is just the way it is, any more than saying, when reading some study of police brutality, see, all police are brutes, it is what it takes to be a policeman.
    As you say there are demands that the EU has made of the industry. For example they want traceability and transparency re: what drugs the animal may have been given that perhaps is banned by the EU.
    They started with requiring EIDs, found that those weren't exactly being filled out in the manner they were intended [ie truthfully] and decided that they will therefore have to attempt traceability/transparency by requiring passports for all horses in July.

    What then?
    Since I bet the number of US horses with passports who might go to slaughter can be counted on one hand... what then?

    The 'glut' of 'unwanted' horses in the US who would have otherwise shipped to slaughter that will then have to be 'dealt with' when that happens is the fault of those not interested in complying with the demands of the EU [not RaRa's, not extremists], similar to how they don't comply with FSIS inspection procedures and OSHA and USDA

    Furthermore, opening a new slaughter plant in the US will NOT circumvent that passport requirement. So whether you open one, and whether it's all shiny and clean and humane or not.... I imagine the most activity it will see is thumb twiddling.
    There will be no US horses to slaughter there as the buyer, the EU, wants passports showing all medications that horse has had. US horses do not have those and I highly doubt, based on the response to the chip requirement uproar that happened a few years ago, passports are going to be embraced.

    Again not RaRas or extremists demanding these passports, but the EU



  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Not everyone is talking about banning, not by a long shot. Go back and read the posts.

    But many are. Some are even suggesting elimination of not slaughtering any animals.

    Then there's the old slippery slope that the RARA's want and that is animal ownership.



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